cleared to line up

[lowbypass]

when a pilot requests to line up and is cleared, does ATC assume the traffic is ready for take off?...i've heard a long haul B763 done that and when was asked if was ready for take off the reply was "we need 3 minutes"...what i need to know is cant these 3 minutes be consumed while "holding short"?...no grudges the learning process continues...i asked an ATCO buddy who told me is was something to do with the aircrafts NAV SYSTEMS or final security checks (not cabin sterile)...true?...

[GT3]

If a pilot accepts a line-up clearance he MUST be fully ready. If he is not then good airmanship would dictate he informed ATC and DID NOT CROSS THE CAT I hold and enter the runway - doing so would likely deem it unusable by other aircraft.

Some British Airways' crews have their own ideas on this however

[Chilli Monster]

Certain aircraft (AN124 / AN225) require 4 minutes on the runway before commencing the take-off roll (This 4 minutes however can be anythng between 4 & 10 minutes!). They are the only aircraft I know of at the moment which require this.

For this reason no aircraft should be asking for line-up clearance. The call is "ready for departure". It's up to ATC whether they put them on the runway or not before or after this call. Any aircraft who asks me for "line up" (apart from the two mentioned previously) will often be asked whether they're ready for departure, as you don't give away the runway unles you have to. (and if they're not ready then they don't get the runway - pure and simple).

[niknak]

As Chilli says, Never, ever, give the runway away unless you have to.

Reporting "ready for departure" is the pilots responsibility and no one elses, having been bitten before, no one gets onto the runway until they are ready to go.

[lowbypass]

...in fact the traffic was BA 046 on line up position

...also, these 124s and 225s cannot they warm those engines (or whatever) at holding point?...

[baron samedi]

the Russian aircraft you mention that require the 4 minutes on the runway like to do it there, as they need to spool the engines higher than taxi power to warm them through. They do this on the runway to avoid blast hazard to other aircraft, vehicles, people etc operating close-by.

Also, when they roll for departure, they do not idle the engines again, as this has a detrimental effect to the warming process. They spool further to take off N1 and roll straight away.

[bookworm]

The call is "ready for departure". It's up to ATC whether they put them on the runway or not before or after this call.

I have to admit to being surprised at the number of times I'm invited to line up, knowing (and having stated) that it will take me longer to get ready for departure than it would take me between calling for a join and needing a landing clearance.

[lowbypass]

thanks baron samedi, understood...awkward procedure though.

i would like to see what happens at places like london heathrow or its equivalent (where their noise is not a problem and they are welcome), 4 mins on the active RWY?

[BigBoeing]

the only choice we have is arrange a huge gap with radar, talking 20-25 miles for line up, engine run up and roll. You can try to still use the runway with intersection departures ahead of the antonov

[Blip]

I can think of two reasons why a pilot might request a line up clearance rather than report "Ready for Departure" (Here in Australia we just say "Ready").

1. There is some weather around and you want some time in the lined-up position to check the radar returns and assess whether the SID track is OK and/or determine a radar heading that will get you away safely.

2. There is a long back-track required and the cabin crew have not yet given you the signal that the cabin is secure for take-off, but you don't anticipate any problems and expect them to be secure by the time you reach the take-off position. You are just trying to save some time. I suppose it's a calculated risk.

[AlJassmi]

In Australia I've heard pilots "request line up" - usually means they expect the cabin to be ready shortly. I would expect they've had a look around and aren't expecting to delay other flights. Though some are a little cheeky and just want to make sure they get ahead of someone else. If circumstances permit ie no-one else taxiing near the holding point; different arriving and departing runways, then it may be allowed.
If they're after time on the runway to look at weather radar the phraseology would usually be "require x seconds lined up/on the rwy)".

[betterfromabove]

"Cleared to Line Up & Take off..."

Never understood why French ATC always insist on clearing to "line up & take off" when you're ready for departure....do they do this at CDG/ORY too?

Makes no sense. Either (i) you are cleared to line up & HOLD or (ii) you are cleared to take-off, in which case you are going to (hopefully!) be lined up already before rolling, right?!?

And what happens if the second half of the transmission is cut off...you have a plane sat on the R/W going nowhere & an ATCO wondering what's going on.....

PS. Interesting anecdote about the Ant's. They need the time to get the wings flapping don't they.... I swear aerodynamics is not enough alone.

[loubylou]

Frankly - if a pilot accepts a line up clearance and lines up I would expect that aircraft to be ready for departure subject to any pre take off checks - which these days are supposed to be kept to a minimum on an active runway and only the absolutely essential ones that cannot be done at the holding point.
If then the pilot states after he's lined up that they require 3 mins then I would be instructing that aircraft to vacate the runway.
Unless - there are operational reasons - ie wx, the wierdy russian types, wake vortex - but if the pilots state they require more than the standard wake vortex after they've lined up - then I would be inclined to get them off the runway.
No problems if the crew state what they want BEFORE they cross the stop bar and line up
louby

[bookworm]

Frankly - if a pilot accepts a line up clearance and lines up I would expect that aircraft to be ready for departure subject to any pre take off checks - which these days are supposed to be kept to a minimum on an active runway and only the absolutely essential ones that cannot be done at the holding point.

But you're the one that put them on the runway before they had reported ready! A call of "ready for departure" would imply that those checks that could be done at the hold were complete. Conversely, if you didn't hear that call then it's likely that their checks were not complete and they'll take extra time on the runway.

Or were you assuming that that crew accepted the line up clearance after reporting ready?

[loubylou]

Yes!
The original query was that after the crew had requested to line up - so I guessed that they were stating that they were ready.
However - yes - if I give a line up clearance without checking if the crew are ready for departure, then that is my issue and the subsequent go around would be too!
Personally I won't give a line up clearance unless the crew have reported ready for departure.
edited to add - having re read the original post, I wouldn't assume any one is ready for departure, I always check. Mainly as I have been caught out before now in my youf!

louby

[Spangly]

I can think of three instances where an aircraft would line up and not be ready:

1. MD11 requiring high power run up during icing conditions to bleed hot air over wings. Normally takes about 3 minutes. Other heavies may need this as well, but don't know which.
2. As mentioned before, to use the weather radar to look in the direction of intended flight and see if there are any CBs
3. If there was absolutely nothing inbound for miles and miles, no other deps, and you knew the aircraft was going to be ready within a minute or two.

[Farrell]

"Some British Airways' crews have their own ideas on this however"

Funny you should say that. I've just had a group of tower controllers here complaining about the above.

Quote:
"We never ask Speedbirds if they are ready for an immediate because they sit there for ages after being given a take off clearance. Why is this?"

I don't know. Can one of you tell me?

[redsnail]

One thing I have noticed a couple of times is that we're given a line up clearance before we've called "ready for departure".

On our first flight of the day we need to do a couple of checks that can't be done on stand and ideally need to be done stationary, usually at the hold.
Fair enough, ATC don't know that it's the first flight but at 6am it's a fair asssumption.

Naturally, we refuse the line up, stating that we need a minute for checks.

Is this a normal procedure to offer crew a line up clearance before they've called "ready for departure"?

[wiggy]

Farrell

Bit of a blanket statement about BA crew I feel.....certainly not being ready isn't always true - even I was ready "on reaching" the other day - then again it was at JFK On the other hand leaving the T4 victor stands for a 27L departure at LHR is always going to cause problems for the BA widebodies

There are two things that generally cause us problems:

1. Cabin checks not being complete - why do other airlines seem to be quicker than us? - I couldn't possibly speculate

2. Waiting for the final ( Datalink) loadsheet - why are other airlines quicker than us, especially at LHR? - I could speculate that it's down to the way our loadsheets are produced and the umpteen links in the chain involved in getting the figures to the flightdeck printer but I better hadn't..

[Farrell]

The main gripe over here is tower asking Speedbird if they are ready for immediate......and being told "Affirm" by the crew......only to then have them line up and sit there having been cleared for takeoff.