Level F130 by GWC
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Level F130 by GWC
Had a discussion today regarding clearances that I thought maybe an ATC bod could clear up.
As an example at LGW (Willo 4C), if you are initially cleared to F130, to be level by GWC, and then subsequently cleared direct to MAY (cutting the corner), do ATC still expect you to be level at F130 when passing abeam GWC? On occassion it is specified in the clearance (more often F150 abeam Bexhill on a Timba) but sometimes it's not??
Cheers!
As an example at LGW (Willo 4C), if you are initially cleared to F130, to be level by GWC, and then subsequently cleared direct to MAY (cutting the corner), do ATC still expect you to be level at F130 when passing abeam GWC? On occassion it is specified in the clearance (more often F150 abeam Bexhill on a Timba) but sometimes it's not??
Cheers!
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This sort of question has been discussed aplenty before. However, as far as I'm concerned a new clearance superseeds the old one, so unless I reiterate the level restriction you don't need to make it anymore.
We often reiterate it when we need to make sure that (for just one example) you don't enter another sectors airspace.
In this particular instance, if you are getting the short cut to MAY, it means that there's no holding and the chances are it's quite quiet so the level restriction is unlikely to matter as much anyway.
Cheers,
N
"Keep smiling, it makes people wonder what you're up to..."
We often reiterate it when we need to make sure that (for just one example) you don't enter another sectors airspace.
In this particular instance, if you are getting the short cut to MAY, it means that there's no holding and the chances are it's quite quiet so the level restriction is unlikely to matter as much anyway.
Cheers,
N
"Keep smiling, it makes people wonder what you're up to..."
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In that particular instance whilst it is correct that a new clearance cancels out the first and if the restriction is not restated then you no longer need to make it, on the track from GWC to MAY or anywhere near you will have all manner of Heathrow MID departures climbing through your level from the north. Whilst you may not make the 130 abeam GWC I wouldn't advise turning a decent ROD into a drift!!
My advice is if you're not sure then ask, assuming you can get in of course...
My advice is if you're not sure then ask, assuming you can get in of course...
If I said descend Flight Level 130 level by GWC and then 10 seconds later tell you to continue present heading (no longer routing direct to GWC,) I would still expect you to honour the previous descent restriction overhead or abeam GWC, unless I tell you otherwise. The same would apply to a DCT MAY clearance. This said, if the descent restriction is important then I will tell you to do so abeam unless I am too busy and forget!
If in doubt, ask. Chances are if Air Traffic are giving you a nice "direct to" clearance such as this they won't be too busy to answer the question if you pose it.
If in doubt, ask. Chances are if Air Traffic are giving you a nice "direct to" clearance such as this they won't be too busy to answer the question if you pose it.
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Perusal -
A bit unrealistic on your part really in some respects.
Your new clearance - "continue present heading" etc does not reiterate a new level e.g. "Descend FL110" which, unless you specified "descend FL110, cross GWC FL130 or below" would cancel the previous restriction.
However having used "continue present heading" you have not changed the level criteria, therefore it could be argued that you would expect the pilot to continue with the current descent profile as well (as you are not changing the routing until the A/C flies through the waypoint it was inbound to before your second instruction).
If however the A/C came onto frequency stating that it was descending to be level FL130 by GWC, and you, being a kind controller give it a direct MAY route, you really should reiterate the restriction using "level abeam"... if for no other reason than the fact that having set the A/C up on a descent profile that allows it to be level at GWC, this descent rate may not be enought for the A/C to be level abeam GWC because you have shortened it's track miles.
The pilot in this instance needs to reset the FMS.
As as aside though - when would you consider an A/C to be abeam GWC?... the A/C is always abeam a point if it is not directly over it!! To be a pedant, you really need to state something like 'south abeam' etc - but that is just getting a bit picky!!
A bit unrealistic on your part really in some respects.
Your new clearance - "continue present heading" etc does not reiterate a new level e.g. "Descend FL110" which, unless you specified "descend FL110, cross GWC FL130 or below" would cancel the previous restriction.
However having used "continue present heading" you have not changed the level criteria, therefore it could be argued that you would expect the pilot to continue with the current descent profile as well (as you are not changing the routing until the A/C flies through the waypoint it was inbound to before your second instruction).
If however the A/C came onto frequency stating that it was descending to be level FL130 by GWC, and you, being a kind controller give it a direct MAY route, you really should reiterate the restriction using "level abeam"... if for no other reason than the fact that having set the A/C up on a descent profile that allows it to be level at GWC, this descent rate may not be enought for the A/C to be level abeam GWC because you have shortened it's track miles.
The pilot in this instance needs to reset the FMS.
As as aside though - when would you consider an A/C to be abeam GWC?... the A/C is always abeam a point if it is not directly over it!! To be a pedant, you really need to state something like 'south abeam' etc - but that is just getting a bit picky!!
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An aircraft is abeam a point when a line from that point to the aircraft is at right angles to it's track. So it is not always abeam the point (unless it is flying in a circle around that point, unlikely at GWC!) and there is no need for "south abeam" etc..
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well i am one of those chaps who gives direct may... when available.
i dont expect you to still be 130 lvl abeam gwc as this usually cuts down the track miles you have, therefore you will be higher.
and just for info, willo, the sector that handles the inbounds to gatwick through gwc also handles the heathrow midhursts and gatwick bogna/seafords that need to be climbed through these inbounds. if an outbound is not climbing to well i will only turn you to may when i am happy that the outbound will be through the inbound... thats common sense, but you would be surprised how many dont take into account that turning for may early will result in the a/c being a couple of thousand feet higher abeam the same point.
W
i dont expect you to still be 130 lvl abeam gwc as this usually cuts down the track miles you have, therefore you will be higher.
and just for info, willo, the sector that handles the inbounds to gatwick through gwc also handles the heathrow midhursts and gatwick bogna/seafords that need to be climbed through these inbounds. if an outbound is not climbing to well i will only turn you to may when i am happy that the outbound will be through the inbound... thats common sense, but you would be surprised how many dont take into account that turning for may early will result in the a/c being a couple of thousand feet higher abeam the same point.
W
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Amendments to Clearances
This question has been asked so many times before. The answer is definitive and is found in CAP493 MATS Part 1 (Sec 1 Chapt 4, page 4) and reads as follows
OK ??
JD
7 Amendments to Clearances
7.1 When an amendment is made to a clearance the new clearance shall be read in full to the pilot and shall automatically cancel any previous clearance. Controllers must be aware, therefore, that if the original clearance included a restriction, e.g. 'cross ABC FL 150 or below' then the issue of a revised clearance automatically cancels the earlier restriction, unless it is reiterated with the revised clearance.
7.1 When an amendment is made to a clearance the new clearance shall be read in full to the pilot and shall automatically cancel any previous clearance. Controllers must be aware, therefore, that if the original clearance included a restriction, e.g. 'cross ABC FL 150 or below' then the issue of a revised clearance automatically cancels the earlier restriction, unless it is reiterated with the revised clearance.
OK ??
JD
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However, if it is their intention that the restriction should still apply (e.g. not above FL130 abeam GWC), then it must be restated with the subsequent "direct" clearance - e.g. "Cleared direct Mayfield, cross abeam Goodwood at or below FL130."
JD
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JD and Wizad 
Exactly what I was trying to get across. If I need you level I need to tell you! If I'm worried about the outbounds I won't turn you.
Oh one thing though JD, We've not moved to Swanwick yet, so when you're given direct MAY then you're likely to be working Terminal Control who are still at West Drayton (for a little while longer anyway!) not LACC.
Cheers,
N
"Keep smiling - it makes people wonder what you're up to..."
Exactly what I was trying to get across. If I need you level I need to tell you! If I'm worried about the outbounds I won't turn you.
Oh one thing though JD, We've not moved to Swanwick yet, so when you're given direct MAY then you're likely to be working Terminal Control who are still at West Drayton (for a little while longer anyway!) not LACC.
Cheers,
N
"Keep smiling - it makes people wonder what you're up to..."
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Enjoy your move to Swanwick ... !
JD
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<<Sorry, Northerner, I didn't mean to tread on your sensitivities>>
That's ok JD, not sure I have any anyway!!!!
I'm impressed with your knowledge of the sectors too.
I'm already on the south coast and now can't wait for the job to be there too!
Cheers,
N
"Keep smiling, it makes people wonder what you're up to...."
That's ok JD, not sure I have any anyway!!!!
I'm impressed with your knowledge of the sectors too.
I'm already on the south coast and now can't wait for the job to be there too!
Cheers,
N
"Keep smiling, it makes people wonder what you're up to...."
... and it has been accepted 
... sorry TC ...