Heathrow datalink clearances
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Heathrow datalink clearances
Just a quick one.
FRA - datalink clearance just gives next frequency to call for pushback when ready
CDG - datalink clearance just gives next frequency to call for pushback when ready
AMS - datalink clearance just gives next frequency to call for pushback when ready
LHR - full readback of stand, QNH, ATIS, type, the fact that it's a datalink, shoe size and on and on and on.
Didn't we put all that on the PDC request?
I don't think we've saved any R/T time at all. Why are we doing this?
FRA - datalink clearance just gives next frequency to call for pushback when ready
CDG - datalink clearance just gives next frequency to call for pushback when ready
AMS - datalink clearance just gives next frequency to call for pushback when ready
LHR - full readback of stand, QNH, ATIS, type, the fact that it's a datalink, shoe size and on and on and on.
Didn't we put all that on the PDC request?
I don't think we've saved any R/T time at all. Why are we doing this?
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Your message to request clearance appears on our system as purely that. I'm not sure of the mechanics at your end, but all we see is your flight strip change colour to notify us you've requested PDC. We can receive text with this, as many Lufthansa crews often send us a 'Hello' or 'Good Morning', but I can't remember ever seeing any QNH, stand, type or ATIS letter from a PDC request from anything other than a Lufti.
Regardless of this, you would still need to call Delivery before push because it's his/her job to ensure you have the correct QNH and current ATIS before you pushback, and we can't send that via datalink if it changes between you getting PDC and being ready for push.
Regardless of this, you would still need to call Delivery before push because it's his/her job to ensure you have the correct QNH and current ATIS before you pushback, and we can't send that via datalink if it changes between you getting PDC and being ready for push.
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Not only all that...
But 121.975 isn't just Clearance Delivery... It is in fact the Ground Movement Planner position and as such is used to regulate the flow of traffic across the other positions in the tower (GMC 1/GMC2/Air) thus preventing (or assisting
) in controller overloads.
Hence, we get everybody to call 121.975 after having received your datalink clearance. If everybody piled onto 121.9 or 121.7 after having received DCL then the amount of congestion would be horrific, particularly high volume aprons like Kilo and Juliet.
But 121.975 isn't just Clearance Delivery... It is in fact the Ground Movement Planner position and as such is used to regulate the flow of traffic across the other positions in the tower (GMC 1/GMC2/Air) thus preventing (or assisting
) in controller overloads.Hence, we get everybody to call 121.975 after having received your datalink clearance. If everybody piled onto 121.9 or 121.7 after having received DCL then the amount of congestion would be horrific, particularly high volume aprons like Kilo and Juliet.
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Hi Gonzo
Just curious about the lack of stand and ATIS on PDC requests - we have boxes for those and fill them in - didn't realise that it didn't make any difference if we didn't fill them in. Do you want Stand/ATIS/QNH in the text line anyway, as well as the Guten Tag etc?
sB (Red, Blue and White airline - normally blocking J/K/V)
Just curious about the lack of stand and ATIS on PDC requests - we have boxes for those and fill them in - didn't realise that it didn't make any difference if we didn't fill them in. Do you want Stand/ATIS/QNH in the text line anyway, as well as the Guten Tag etc?
sB (Red, Blue and White airline - normally blocking J/K/V)
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As I said, I'm not too familiar with the kit on your end (I need a fam flight!).
When we receive your PDC request, your strip moves to the PDC panel on our display, and turns blue. If you send a text line too, the callsign box on the strip will flash. Touching on the callsign will bring up a box where the message will be displayed. If you can enter all that info in that text line, then please do so.
Likewise, when we send you the PDC, we have boxes to enter the current ATIS letter and QNH along with the SID and Squawk...our understanding is that you only get the SID and squawk, regardless of what we send.
When we receive your PDC request, your strip moves to the PDC panel on our display, and turns blue. If you send a text line too, the callsign box on the strip will flash. Touching on the callsign will bring up a box where the message will be displayed. If you can enter all that info in that text line, then please do so.
Likewise, when we send you the PDC, we have boxes to enter the current ATIS letter and QNH along with the SID and Squawk...our understanding is that you only get the SID and squawk, regardless of what we send.
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Thanks for the replies people. The PDC request page is ARINC 623-2 compliant, and we put city pair, callsign, stand, and ATIS letter along with any freetext entry.
Your reply comes back with the PDC ident number, clearance, and latest slot and ATIS.
When Gatwick trialled the system years ago, we simply read them the PDC ident number as an acknowledgement.
Having put all that info in the PDC request, it's a bit puzzling that we have to read the whole lot back in voice?
If you have to regulate start ups at busy periods, then perhaps the way that Schipol use 'SCHIPOL START-UP' frequency might be a better way?
Your reply comes back with the PDC ident number, clearance, and latest slot and ATIS.
When Gatwick trialled the system years ago, we simply read them the PDC ident number as an acknowledgement.
Having put all that info in the PDC request, it's a bit puzzling that we have to read the whole lot back in voice?
If you have to regulate start ups at busy periods, then perhaps the way that Schipol use 'SCHIPOL START-UP' frequency might be a better way?
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Ah, ok, so you do get the ATIS letter, just not the QNH.
We do not know anything about PDC idents, it's completely meaningless to us (and for any other EFPS - Electronic Strip- equipped units such as Gatwick, Stansted and Luton).
All that our system shows us is that you're requesting clearance. Unless you add anything to the text line, we get nothing more. Which is why we need you to confirm all those details via voice.
Similarly, the only messages we can send you are:
-The clearance, or
-A 'revert to voice' message. We cannot send you a 'contact 121.x' or any other messages, hence us requiring all a/c to call Delivery to get start up, even after PDC. What do Schipol do?
We do not know anything about PDC idents, it's completely meaningless to us (and for any other EFPS - Electronic Strip- equipped units such as Gatwick, Stansted and Luton).
All that our system shows us is that you're requesting clearance. Unless you add anything to the text line, we get nothing more. Which is why we need you to confirm all those details via voice.
Similarly, the only messages we can send you are:
-The clearance, or
-A 'revert to voice' message. We cannot send you a 'contact 121.x' or any other messages, hence us requiring all a/c to call Delivery to get start up, even after PDC. What do Schipol do?
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To the BA crews:-
When you do receive your DCL and then a few minutes later when you are ready and call us with your stand, type, QNH and ATIS, please don't forget to mention that you are actually ready! This is missed too often
And then you have..
The number of long haul who get DCL and then call up delivery with the above infornation, followed by my response of 'Roger, are you ready?' with the crew replying something like 'er no we'll be another x minutes'.
Well then why are you calling?
When you do receive your DCL and then a few minutes later when you are ready and call us with your stand, type, QNH and ATIS, please don't forget to mention that you are actually ready! This is missed too often
And then you have..
The number of long haul who get DCL and then call up delivery with the above infornation, followed by my response of 'Roger, are you ready?' with the crew replying something like 'er no we'll be another x minutes'.
Well then why are you calling?
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At Stansted we can see all your hellos etc. but we can't reply in a free text format unfortunately. Our QNH box is greyed out so we cannot send the QNH to you, only done on the RT.
Please use it, it's a lot easier and quicker.
Please use it, it's a lot easier and quicker.
As I said, I'm not too familiar with the kit on your end (I need a fam flight!).
What your bosses could do with is a famil. trip to Schipol or one of the big German airports where the whole clearance, start-up and ground operation works like clockwork through datalink. 10-15 years ago I would have said that they needed to visit you but things have moved on and LHR feels pretty clunky and behind the times in comparison to the way other big airports in Europe are organised.
The way we are doing it at LHR is a halfway house and doesn't really help very much although it does cut down RT a bit. Once again we seem to be behind the rest if Europe in our implementation of new technology and new operating practices by making the new technology fit in with the old way of doing things rather then letting the technology work the way it is supposed to.
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I've been on two fam flights recently, but both occasions were with non-datalink a/c.
As to the other points in your post, unfortunately we have, over the past few years and for various reasons, lost a lot of flexibility and thus also (quality of..) service provision.
Lots of missed opportunities.
As to the other points in your post, unfortunately we have, over the past few years and for various reasons, lost a lot of flexibility and thus also (quality of..) service provision.
Lots of missed opportunities.
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Thanks everybody. It seems that we are a number of steps behind other airports using this system. In places like MUC, DCL is integral to the CDM (Collaborative Decision Making) initiative. Startup coordination is effected using this system, with pilots kept up to date with target times etc using the stand guidance display panels and a policy of 'negative R/T' (monitoring). Works very well.
Perhaps you could organise a day out of the office at MUC or FRA to see the system in action?
Perhaps you could organise a day out of the office at MUC or FRA to see the system in action?
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Heathrows DCL is a bit crappy but it DOES help to cut down on GMP RT TIMES - I often issue 2 DCL clearances (in the dead time between transmissions)at the same time as issuing voice clearances. Only the slots, SID and ATIS letters are transmitted NOT the QNH
If the pilot sends a stand number different to what EFPS is showing, the system flags it up, so you flying folks keep putting it in.
When you call up delivery, just say you have datalink (no serial number), current QNH and that you're ready. We already know what ATIS you have and will advise if it is too old or any significant changes have taken place.
If the pilot sends a stand number different to what EFPS is showing, the system flags it up, so you flying folks keep putting it in.
When you call up delivery, just say you have datalink (no serial number), current QNH and that you're ready. We already know what ATIS you have and will advise if it is too old or any significant changes have taken place.
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SATAN, the procedure is QNH, ATIS, type and stand etc etc, so it would be incorrect to ask pilots to start ignoring something laid down. By all means we can work with operators etc to change it. We have enough problems with crews ignoring procedures/not knowing of procedure changes without introducing our own, ad-hoc.
Also, we know what ATIS we sent, but not that he's got it, which is the whole point. And also if it's changed since we passed the DCL we can give the new letter.
Also, I've had a/c call from a stand different to that on EFPS, and there was no reconcile.....So I'd still like a/c to tell me that too.
Also, we know what ATIS we sent, but not that he's got it, which is the whole point. And also if it's changed since we passed the DCL we can give the new letter.
Also, I've had a/c call from a stand different to that on EFPS, and there was no reconcile.....So I'd still like a/c to tell me that too.
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Is there anything in the works to bring the Heathrow DCL clearance system up to the standard elsewhere, or is this how it is going to stay?
I'd just assumed that it was implemented in its current poor state just to bring it in to service in time with the new tower.
Until it is fixed, I think you can continue to expect wierd bits of information added to some pilot's R/T transmissions and some people checking in with GMC rather than GMP.
G W-H
I'd just assumed that it was implemented in its current poor state just to bring it in to service in time with the new tower.
Until it is fixed, I think you can continue to expect wierd bits of information added to some pilot's R/T transmissions and some people checking in with GMC rather than GMP.
G W-H
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GWH,
It is in its present state because of how it interacts with our electronic strip system. It is not considered to be operating at limited functionality.
I don't know what the medium-long term plans are, but hopefully I'll find out soon.
Short term I have heard we are trying to sort out a free text reply so we can send you messages.
When you say 'poor state', what do you mean? (and I'm not being defensive, or anything like that....) What do you want from a DCL system? What would, in your eyes, be a 'good state'?
It is in its present state because of how it interacts with our electronic strip system. It is not considered to be operating at limited functionality.
I don't know what the medium-long term plans are, but hopefully I'll find out soon.
Short term I have heard we are trying to sort out a free text reply so we can send you messages.
When you say 'poor state', what do you mean? (and I'm not being defensive, or anything like that....) What do you want from a DCL system? What would, in your eyes, be a 'good state'?