London City when it's busy - just what landing/takeoff separation minima is possible?
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London City when it's busy - just what landing/takeoff separation minima is possible?
I sometimes take a detour home past London City and even stop and watch for a few minutes. At seven in the evening it is quite a hive of activity 
. I counted 13 scheduled aircraft on the ramp I think at 19:15. Aircraft doing little dances around the ramp like pieces in a chinese puzzle...Almost irresistible to go see!
I watched a Fokker 50 land on 10 and start a backtrack, whilst another F50 lined up, and over Canary Wharf approached an RJ.
I thought: "Well this'll test the limits" Actually, as the three potential conflicts progressed, I said to a spotter nearby, "I reckon this is a go around"...
The backtrack looked a bit leisurely to begin with but then expedited. The RJ was approaching the Royal Victoria dock by now as the first F50 cleared the runway. The lined up F50 didn't seem immediately ready...the RJ continued...the lined up F50 began to roll, ... and the RJ continued.
The net result was that the F50 hadn't rotated as the RJ came abeam Excel, and in fact only did so at about he same time as the RJ crossed over the bridge.
Exciting to watch, but what's technically possible in this scenario?
. I counted 13 scheduled aircraft on the ramp I think at 19:15. Aircraft doing little dances around the ramp like pieces in a chinese puzzle...Almost irresistible to go see!I watched a Fokker 50 land on 10 and start a backtrack, whilst another F50 lined up, and over Canary Wharf approached an RJ.
I thought: "Well this'll test the limits"
Actually, as the three potential conflicts progressed, I said to a spotter nearby, "I reckon this is a go around"...The backtrack looked a bit leisurely to begin with but then expedited. The RJ was approaching the Royal Victoria dock by now as the first F50 cleared the runway. The lined up F50 didn't seem immediately ready...the RJ continued...the lined up F50 began to roll, ... and the RJ continued.
The net result was that the F50 hadn't rotated as the RJ came abeam Excel, and in fact only did so at about he same time as the RJ crossed over the bridge.
Exciting to watch, but what's technically possible in this scenario?
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I don't know the answer but are you going to accept other people's answers? Or are you going to argue that you know best as per your previous threads despite professional people giving you the truth????
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So long as the aircraft getting airborne has its wheels off the ground before the aircraft on the approach touches the ground - no problems. That's all it boils down to - nothing else.
just what landing/takeoff separation minima is possible?
In VMC and with wake seperation taken into consideration these kind of ops are 'evidently' possible and very, very efficient.
As for the folk at Thames.... Well that's another story.
Edit: Chilli pipped me. What he said.
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DTY/LKS if you don't know the answer then why are you immediately having a dig at me for asking again? You really do have a narrow mind, don't you?
Paddyboy, wake separation is one thing and I guess it is no particular significance in my example, but is there any decision height for the RJ in those conditions?
What I was wondering was with this short runway, a faster aircraft doing a late go around from 200 feet with a slower aircraft also climbing out is surely the beginnings of a messy problem?
Paddyboy, wake separation is one thing and I guess it is no particular significance in my example, but is there any decision height for the RJ in those conditions?
What I was wondering was with this short runway, a faster aircraft doing a late go around from 200 feet with a slower aircraft also climbing out is surely the beginnings of a messy problem?
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Surely the length of the runway has nothing to do with it. A late go-around at EGLL with a 3500ft runway by a faster aircraft with a Fokker 50 just airbourne would create the same "problem".
Long story short slip and turn.
IF and that's a big if there was a go around(highly unlikely in this instance) the RJ would've easily outclimbed/manoeuvered the F50 given its relative height advantage.
There's is nothing messy nor will there ever be regarding LCY's operation.
It may look exciting but just remember that both pilots & more importantly controllers are highly trained and highly experienced.
Just enjoy the local action and stop giving the journo's nothing to write something about.
IF and that's a big if there was a go around(highly unlikely in this instance) the RJ would've easily outclimbed/manoeuvered the F50 given its relative height advantage.
There's is nothing messy nor will there ever be regarding LCY's operation.
It may look exciting but just remember that both pilots & more importantly controllers are highly trained and highly experienced.
Just enjoy the local action and stop giving the journo's nothing to write something about.
Last edited by paddyboy; 13th Sep 2007 at 21:17.
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Slip and turn, as i said, i don't know the answer which is why i let the airport guys answer the question. They are the experts in this part of ATC & what they give as their answer is fine with me. In previous threads you have doubted the answers given to you by these guys, so was just wondering if you were going to do the same again?
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Exciting to watch, but what's technically possible in this scenario?
Everyone in the scenario is kept up to date. The inbound will be told to expect late landing clearance .The controller has a plan in his/her head and will (through experience) know when to throw it away. Seems like good runway utilisation to me.
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Understand your example perfectly Mike. In this evening's case the same manoeuvre was possibly under consideration, but the steadily backtracked F50 whilst clear of the runway, wasn't hurrying to clear the entrance to the apron either ...
As I said, the stands were full soon after seven this evening, and whilst London City are waiting for the Eastern Apron extension, I see they are saturating heavily using the Jet Centre end stands compared to what used to be the case - which is one reason why the busted Swiss Avro had to shifted out of the way to over next to the fire practice mock-up I guess.
Twice or even three times in 10 minutes we saw aircraft manoeuvring "musical chairs" fashion a bit like you described although they were not lining up, just playing the 'let's go round the block to unblock the apron' game.
PS Can anyone tell us where the Red Bull runway was? I was away that week. Where can I find reports on the event, please?
As I said, the stands were full soon after seven this evening, and whilst London City are waiting for the Eastern Apron extension, I see they are saturating heavily using the Jet Centre end stands compared to what used to be the case - which is one reason why the busted Swiss Avro had to shifted out of the way to over next to the fire practice mock-up I guess.
Twice or even three times in 10 minutes we saw aircraft manoeuvring "musical chairs" fashion a bit like you described although they were not lining up, just playing the 'let's go round the block to unblock the apron' game.
PS Can anyone tell us where the Red Bull runway was? I was away that week. Where can I find reports on the event, please?
Twice or even three times in 10 minutes we saw aircraft manoeuvring "musical chairs" fashion a bit like you described although they were not lining up, just playing the 'let's go round the block to unblock the apron' game.
Simply, an a/c holding at Alpha may have a later slot time than one behind so he/she enters the active and vacates via Bravo thus letting earlier a/c depart on time.
An aviation roundabout.
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PS Can anyone tell us where the Red Bull runway was? I was away that week. Where can I find reports on the event, please?
Red Bull Air Race site
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Thanks again for the snappy visuals, Roffa!
Meantime, I'd already been to the redbullairrace site and roughly worked out where the runway was ... also I've just found another fairly recent PPRuNe thread which discusses late landing clearances versus go arounds ... http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=279800
Meantime, I'd already been to the redbullairrace site and roughly worked out where the runway was ... also I've just found another fairly recent PPRuNe thread which discusses late landing clearances versus go arounds ... http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=279800
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I beg your pardon? I'm no pope - bejeez oi'm not even Catholic! I merely seek the truth and nothing but - well apart from the grail/women as aforementioned in the Ageism thread which seems to have run out of puff
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So, SLAP.....please give us mere ATCers an insight into your "expertise" or [perhapse] your "qualifications" to pontificate about matters that you [as an Amateur] know more than a [Professional] ATCO
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watp,iktch
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I'll let you into one secret ... I have learned enough to advise in depth on many subjects across the breadth of time, but I have always baulked at calling myself professional, and I don't take too easily to others who overuse the word.
I've always thought it's a bit like saying "I'm honourable", "I exhibit integrity" and such ... even other people commenting on your work performance or attitude can dilute the true value, gravitas and meaning conveyed by the word if they use it too often. Capiche?
When I was deciding what I wanted to be when I grew up there were perhaps three professions: legal, medical, and* possibly accountancy. I guess it was the accountants that started dragging the word through the mud first, shortly followed by lawyers once they were permitted to start advertising their services...
As I've said before, hot dinners consumed is often a better measure of the cut of ones gib.
Edit: *Divinity was actually the third profession ... accountants were the original interlopers, and then the floodgates opened ...
I've always thought it's a bit like saying "I'm honourable", "I exhibit integrity" and such ... even other people commenting on your work performance or attitude can dilute the true value, gravitas and meaning conveyed by the word if they use it too often. Capiche?
When I was deciding what I wanted to be when I grew up there were perhaps three professions: legal, medical, and* possibly accountancy. I guess it was the accountants that started dragging the word through the mud first, shortly followed by lawyers once they were permitted to start advertising their services...
As I've said before, hot dinners consumed is often a better measure of the cut of ones gib.
Edit: *Divinity was actually the third profession ... accountants were the original interlopers, and then the floodgates opened ...
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Slip and Turn,
Chilli gave you the correct answer in the UK.ICAO can have a one runway length rule.Departures have to be rolling by the time the inbound is between 2-3 miles depending on runway length,and aircraft types.
As far as the rest of your posts goes,I cannot understand what you are talking about.It maybe me being over 36,but can you use plain English.You makey no sense
Chilli gave you the correct answer in the UK.ICAO can have a one runway length rule.Departures have to be rolling by the time the inbound is between 2-3 miles depending on runway length,and aircraft types.
As far as the rest of your posts goes,I cannot understand what you are talking about.It maybe me being over 36,but can you use plain English.You makey no sense
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So in answer to Chiglets question......what course were you on?
Not so far as SRG are concerned...the pedants seem to be more interested in professional qualifications and a proper validation .
hot dinners consumed