CDG Arrival
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CDG Arrival
Hello,
I hope there is a controller of the CDG-arrival-sector!?
I'm flying sometimes to Paris (CDG). As we arrive from the south-east we always get the TINIL arrival.
It happend several times that I got the clearance for the TINIL-Arrival and the instruction to fly direct to OMAKO (last point at the arrival-route).
Do you expect that we comply with the altitude/speed-restrictions (e.g. 101DME CLM at FL280 and speed 280 or 51DME CLM below FL180) when you give us a direct OMAKO?
Thanks for your help!
I hope there is a controller of the CDG-arrival-sector!?
I'm flying sometimes to Paris (CDG). As we arrive from the south-east we always get the TINIL arrival.
It happend several times that I got the clearance for the TINIL-Arrival and the instruction to fly direct to OMAKO (last point at the arrival-route).
Do you expect that we comply with the altitude/speed-restrictions (e.g. 101DME CLM at FL280 and speed 280 or 51DME CLM below FL180) when you give us a direct OMAKO?
Thanks for your help!
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Paris
Age: 43
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hello
I'm an ATC from Paris Control. When we give you a direct IAF, we mostly want you to comply with the altitude restrictions abeam the IAF (OMAKO in this example). The over altitude restrictions that you are talking about are not very important for us. Depending on the runway in use and traffic, CDG allows us to keep the speed of the arrivals, but most of the time, they want us to reduce speed 250kts before the IAF. That's why we need you to be low!
Do you need more info?
I'm an ATC from Paris Control. When we give you a direct IAF, we mostly want you to comply with the altitude restrictions abeam the IAF (OMAKO in this example). The over altitude restrictions that you are talking about are not very important for us. Depending on the runway in use and traffic, CDG allows us to keep the speed of the arrivals, but most of the time, they want us to reduce speed 250kts before the IAF. That's why we need you to be low!
Do you need more info?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for your answer!
So when we are cleared direct the IAF we can plan our descent to arrive at the IAF at the requested level disregarding all other altitude and speed restrictions!?
So when we are cleared direct the IAF we can plan our descent to arrive at the IAF at the requested level disregarding all other altitude and speed restrictions!?
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: any town as retired.
Posts: 2,182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Plb_cdg
The descent planning for these is fun, but comes from the knowledge that you need three of four charts, two FMS, and a good bit of luck.
To cross / pass abm a previously defined and subsequently deleted way point does require a little finger work.
But hell Paris is always fun.
Glf
To cross / pass abm a previously defined and subsequently deleted way point does require a little finger work.
But hell Paris is always fun.
Glf
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Paris
Age: 43
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Affirm!
Regarding the traffic around, we organize your descent in order to comply with the level planned with CDG at the IAF. Most of the time we use higher descent speed than planned in the STAR. But it depends if CDG is busy or not...Thus it's very important for the sequencing that you keep the speed given by ATC. If you have to reduce, please tell the ATC as soon as possible!!
Regarding the traffic around, we organize your descent in order to comply with the level planned with CDG at the IAF. Most of the time we use higher descent speed than planned in the STAR. But it depends if CDG is busy or not...Thus it's very important for the sequencing that you keep the speed given by ATC. If you have to reduce, please tell the ATC as soon as possible!!
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Greystation
Posts: 1,086
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
lilibulle75, an observation not critisism, but why do you have a reluctance to hold during the busiest periods, but prefer to vector around and speed accordingly? I ask as a London Controller that delivers your traffic via DPE and its very rare for you to use DPE, instead taking the arrivals westwards to integrate with the arrivals via DVL. When you call for 250kts on the LFPG ins would you just prefer for us to get the speed on straight away even if that means you get maybe 2 or 3 a/c bunched close together, or would you prefer us to actually get the a/c 8 to 10 nm in trail and then get them at 250kts to maintain the gap?
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: South of Brittany
Age: 75
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Extract from CDG AIP
3.3 Standard instrument arrivals (STAR)
The STARs are defined by a route, associated with a profile including
flight level and speed requirements, these flight level and speed requirements
are information enabling the pilot to plan the probable descent profile.
On STAR or with radar guidance, the pilot shall adapt the descent profile in order to observe the published requirements. When it is not possible,the pilot must immediately inform the ATC unit.
That's the reason why the profile restriction are represented by a DME BOW in order to be used outside the published track
3.3 Standard instrument arrivals (STAR)
The STARs are defined by a route, associated with a profile including
flight level and speed requirements, these flight level and speed requirements
are information enabling the pilot to plan the probable descent profile.
On STAR or with radar guidance, the pilot shall adapt the descent profile in order to observe the published requirements. When it is not possible,the pilot must immediately inform the ATC unit.
That's the reason why the profile restriction are represented by a DME BOW in order to be used outside the published track
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Paris
Age: 43
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I know we have different methods. We prefer to sequence the arrivals. If CDG is busy , for instance, they tell us "AFR1271 has to cross MERUE (the IAF) at 8h16" so we decide if we can "loose time" by vectoring around or put him in the hold. That's why we call you to reduce speed because dealing with the holds is not very practical for the approach. We prefer you to put the arrivals in trail when we think they are not going to open the holds because that's what CDG wants in fact. If we know it's going to hold it doesn't matter to me. We know it's not the way you work usually that's why we appreciate when you do nice trails!!
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Europe
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I fly frequently to CDG and as a rule I'm told to "intercept ILS". Something you seldom hear outside France. I would like somebody from Paris arrival to explain what they actually mean by that. I think that it means "cleared for ILS" but sometimes they still give you a clearance to descend with the glide after "intercepting the ILS". Sometimes they don't. Does the clearance to "intercept ILS" mean "cleared for ILS" or just to "intercept the localizer"?
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: South of Brittany
Age: 75
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"intercepting"
I think that the meaning of intercepting is no more ,no less that the one used by ICAO in DOC4444:
6.7.3 Arriving aircraft 6.7.3.1 TYPES OF OPERATIONS
f) radar vectoring is used to intercept the ILS localizer course or the MLS final approach track;
----------------------------------------------------------------
6.7.3.2.3 When vectoring to intercept the ILS localizer course or MLS final approach track, the final vector shall
enable the aircraft to intercept the ILS localizer course or MLS final approach track at an angle not greater than 30 degrees and to provide at least 2 km (1.0 NM) straight and level flight prior to ILS localizer course or MLS final approach track intercept.
----------------------------------------------------
6.7.3.2.6 When assigning the final heading to intercept the ILS localizer course or MLS final approach track, the
runway shall be confirmed, and the aircraft shall be advised of:
a) its position relative to a fix on the ILS localizer course or MLS final approach track;
b) the altitude to be maintained until established on the ILS localizer course or MLS final approach track to
the ILS glide path or specified MLS elevation angle intercept point; and
c) if required, clearance for the appropriate ILS or MLS approach.
-----------------------------------------------------
6.7.3.4 REQUIREMENTS AND PROCEDURES FOR DEPENDENT PARALLEL APPROACHES
6.7.3.4.1 Dependent parallel approaches may be conducted to parallel runways provided:
b) the aircraft are radar vectored to intercept the final approach track;
-------------------------------------------------------
8.9.3.6 Aircraft vectored for final approach should be given a heading or a series of headings calculated to close with the final approach track. The final vector shall enable the aircraft to be established in level flight on the final approach track prior to intercepting the specified or nominal glide path if an MLS, ILS or radar approach is to be made, and should provide an intercept angle with the final approach track of 45 degrees or less.
-------------------------------------------------------
8.9.4 Vectoring to pilot-interpreted final approach aid
8.9.4.1 An aircraft vectored to intercept a pilot interpreted final approach aid shall be instructed to report
when established on the final approach track.
-------------------------------------------------------
12.4.2.2 VECTORING FOR ILS AND OTHER PILOT-INTERPRETED AIDS
b) YOU WILL INTERCEPT (radio aid or track) (distance) FROM
(significant point or TOUCHDOWN);
g) TURN LEFT (or RIGHT) HEADING (three digits) [TO INTERCEPT] or [REPORT ESTABLISHED];
k) MAINTAIN (altitude) UNTIL GLIDE PATH INTERCEPTION;
m) INTERCEPT (localizer course or radio aid) [REPORT ESTABLISHED].
--------------------------------------------------------------
"Does the clearance to "intercept ILS" mean "cleared for ILS" or just to "intercept the LOCALIZER"
ILS is ILS and Localizer is Localizer . Clearance to intercept ILS means LOC and GLI . Localizer is only Localizer.
Just a reminder : e.g. Westband in CDG you can find 3 ILS Approaches . The localizers of the CDG one's are separated by 1,6 NM. Then the third one (Le Bourget) is separated from the CDG south one by 1,4 NM. triple simultaneous approaches are allowed as soon as a 1000 foot separation is applied before LOC interception.
This does not means that coming from north or south, for one of those ILS your altitude is compatible with that one published on the IAP especially when you have to cross one of the other LOC to established on your's.
So if no conflicting traffic you may expect to receive a full ILS interception clearance, if conflicting traffic , just a LOC clearance at a different ( or may be similar) altitude. In that case "Follow the glide" or "Intercept ILS" will be given later.
6.7.3 Arriving aircraft 6.7.3.1 TYPES OF OPERATIONS
f) radar vectoring is used to intercept the ILS localizer course or the MLS final approach track;
----------------------------------------------------------------
6.7.3.2.3 When vectoring to intercept the ILS localizer course or MLS final approach track, the final vector shall
enable the aircraft to intercept the ILS localizer course or MLS final approach track at an angle not greater than 30 degrees and to provide at least 2 km (1.0 NM) straight and level flight prior to ILS localizer course or MLS final approach track intercept.
----------------------------------------------------
6.7.3.2.6 When assigning the final heading to intercept the ILS localizer course or MLS final approach track, the
runway shall be confirmed, and the aircraft shall be advised of:
a) its position relative to a fix on the ILS localizer course or MLS final approach track;
b) the altitude to be maintained until established on the ILS localizer course or MLS final approach track to
the ILS glide path or specified MLS elevation angle intercept point; and
c) if required, clearance for the appropriate ILS or MLS approach.
-----------------------------------------------------
6.7.3.4 REQUIREMENTS AND PROCEDURES FOR DEPENDENT PARALLEL APPROACHES
6.7.3.4.1 Dependent parallel approaches may be conducted to parallel runways provided:
b) the aircraft are radar vectored to intercept the final approach track;
-------------------------------------------------------
8.9.3.6 Aircraft vectored for final approach should be given a heading or a series of headings calculated to close with the final approach track. The final vector shall enable the aircraft to be established in level flight on the final approach track prior to intercepting the specified or nominal glide path if an MLS, ILS or radar approach is to be made, and should provide an intercept angle with the final approach track of 45 degrees or less.
-------------------------------------------------------
8.9.4 Vectoring to pilot-interpreted final approach aid
8.9.4.1 An aircraft vectored to intercept a pilot interpreted final approach aid shall be instructed to report
when established on the final approach track.
-------------------------------------------------------
12.4.2.2 VECTORING FOR ILS AND OTHER PILOT-INTERPRETED AIDS
b) YOU WILL INTERCEPT (radio aid or track) (distance) FROM
(significant point or TOUCHDOWN);
g) TURN LEFT (or RIGHT) HEADING (three digits) [TO INTERCEPT] or [REPORT ESTABLISHED];
k) MAINTAIN (altitude) UNTIL GLIDE PATH INTERCEPTION;
m) INTERCEPT (localizer course or radio aid) [REPORT ESTABLISHED].
--------------------------------------------------------------
"Does the clearance to "intercept ILS" mean "cleared for ILS" or just to "intercept the LOCALIZER"
ILS is ILS and Localizer is Localizer . Clearance to intercept ILS means LOC and GLI . Localizer is only Localizer.
Just a reminder : e.g. Westband in CDG you can find 3 ILS Approaches . The localizers of the CDG one's are separated by 1,6 NM. Then the third one (Le Bourget) is separated from the CDG south one by 1,4 NM. triple simultaneous approaches are allowed as soon as a 1000 foot separation is applied before LOC interception.
This does not means that coming from north or south, for one of those ILS your altitude is compatible with that one published on the IAP especially when you have to cross one of the other LOC to established on your's.
So if no conflicting traffic you may expect to receive a full ILS interception clearance, if conflicting traffic , just a LOC clearance at a different ( or may be similar) altitude. In that case "Follow the glide" or "Intercept ILS" will be given later.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Europe
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I know what intercept means. I also know that sometimes you can get a clearance just to intercept the localizer because of conflicting traffic. That is why I would find it most helpful if also Paris ATC used the standard RTF phraseology published in the same document you quoted (ICAO Doc 4444). That means: intercept localizer, if necessary, and cleared for approach or cleared for ILS, if A/C is expected to leave the last assigned altitude with the glide path.
