Radar UFOs: Seen any?
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Radar UFOs: Seen any?
I was reading upon the RAF Bentwaters case; a primary return the size of a B-36 traveling in excess of 2500kts over the North Sea moves inland, inexplicably stops on dime, breaks into several satellite objects which in turn fire off the scope at similar speeds, performing near-instantaneous right-angled turns following an erratic yet intelligent flight trajectory. Crazy!
How much of this phenomena is observed nowadays in ATC? Especially with electronically-filtered radar, etc.
We sometimes get UFOs per-se on the college sims as "UNKNO"s; but they give out a mode-C and follow airways below controlled airspace so I highly doubt they are spaceships!
N.b - I know this is (mostly) taboo in aviation, especially with pilots, so I'm not expecting too many replies! - I'm interested in picking the brains of the logical, rational (*Ehum*) veteran ATC folk on here for their experience, i.e billions of hours radar time, etc.
How much of this phenomena is observed nowadays in ATC? Especially with electronically-filtered radar, etc.
We sometimes get UFOs per-se on the college sims as "UNKNO"s; but they give out a mode-C and follow airways below controlled airspace so I highly doubt they are spaceships!
N.b - I know this is (mostly) taboo in aviation, especially with pilots, so I'm not expecting too many replies! - I'm interested in picking the brains of the logical, rational (*Ehum*) veteran ATC folk on here for their experience, i.e billions of hours radar time, etc.
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We regularly get primary returns moving fast in random directions. It is caused by two radars picking each other up and getting confused.
I very much doubt anybody who has been in ATC for very long would seriously think UFOs exist.
I very much doubt anybody who has been in ATC for very long would seriously think UFOs exist.
Ohcirrej
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I find it amusing anytime "UFO" is mentioned, people automatically think old Gort and his mates are coming to kick the crap out of Mother Earth.
Flocks of geese, high trucks on the highway, a large piece of aluminium roofing (as happened here last week in high wind), weather balloons, local rocket club nerds firing away without telling anyone (I saw you guys down there on Lagimodiere)........ if picked up as primary only could all be classified as "Unidentified".
Flocks of geese, high trucks on the highway, a large piece of aluminium roofing (as happened here last week in high wind), weather balloons, local rocket club nerds firing away without telling anyone (I saw you guys down there on Lagimodiere)........ if picked up as primary only could all be classified as "Unidentified".
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I was contacted by the police when on a night at Northern Radar in the 70's, they reported a "long cylinder of yellow light, stationary over Doncaster football ground" and "can we see anything on radar"? 
The Norad overhead covered most of the UK so 'NO' 
- it turned out to be a street light!!! 
I asked the cops if they had been drinking and maybe they should breatalyse themselves, they were not appy! 
The Norad overhead covered most of the UK so 'NO' - it turned out to be a street light!!! I asked the cops if they had been drinking and maybe they should breatalyse themselves, they were not appy!
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I always have to sigh when I read the replies of ignorant folks who take the proverbial when someone posts about UFO's. I have seen an unexplained object myself many years ago. It appeared long and cylindrical and of a silvery colour. It also appeared to be at medium altitude (say about 20kft) but was still very distinct. Object remained perfectly stationary with no contrails (other aircraft in the sky were all leaving them) for about 30s. Object then proceeded in a westerly direction at high speed.
The speed of its departure was immense and having been immersed in aviation since I was a kid I KNEW that there was nothing man-made that could achieve such speeds from a stationary position.
Still gets me wondering to this day.
As an ATCO I remember seeing a radar replay somewhere (honestly cant remember where) of an object crossing the tube at VERY high Mach. Only painted a couple of trail dots over the tube. Strange!!
I'm a believer
Spamcan
The speed of its departure was immense and having been immersed in aviation since I was a kid I KNEW that there was nothing man-made that could achieve such speeds from a stationary position.
Still gets me wondering to this day.
As an ATCO I remember seeing a radar replay somewhere (honestly cant remember where) of an object crossing the tube at VERY high Mach. Only painted a couple of trail dots over the tube. Strange!!
I'm a believer
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<<I very much doubt anybody who has been in ATC for very long would seriously think UFOs exist.>>
That's an extraordinary comment, presumably from someone who has never been involved in a UFO incident. I was an ATCO for 35 years and was involved in 4 quyite scary incidents, particularly two overseas. The other two were at Heathrow!
With modern radars one does not see as many "anomalies" as with the old primary radars. But even then one could never be sure that one had seen a "UFO" as radar itself can play strange tricks.
Following a thread on here sometime ago I wrote a note about my experiences. It's still available at:
http://www.members.aol.com/heathrowdirector/
Keep your eyes to the skies!
Bren
That's an extraordinary comment, presumably from someone who has never been involved in a UFO incident. I was an ATCO for 35 years and was involved in 4 quyite scary incidents, particularly two overseas. The other two were at Heathrow!
With modern radars one does not see as many "anomalies" as with the old primary radars. But even then one could never be sure that one had seen a "UFO" as radar itself can play strange tricks.
Following a thread on here sometime ago I wrote a note about my experiences. It's still available at:
http://www.members.aol.com/heathrowdirector/
Keep your eyes to the skies!
Bren
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I seem to remember that back in the early to mid nineties quite a number of ATCOs filed UFO reports. I have also been at the end of pilots reporting UFOs over the RT.
UFOs are Unidentified Flying Objects not Flying saucers.There is also a report form in MATS part 1 so they are taken seriously.
I have had two experiences myself of inexplicable events which I still don't have answers for, I also know of colleagues with the same.
It is too easy to dismiss something simply because you don't understand it, however I am dubious that aliens would travel hundreds and thousands of light years to kidnap some southern American home boy and do various probes of his body but who knows it could be a great diversion tactic
I won't dismiss them there could be all sorts of reasons down to experimental aircraft ,weapons gone astray, weather balloons and maybe even something from somewhere else . They do exist because anything airborne and flying not identified is a UFO
UFOs are Unidentified Flying Objects not Flying saucers.There is also a report form in MATS part 1 so they are taken seriously.
I have had two experiences myself of inexplicable events which I still don't have answers for, I also know of colleagues with the same.
It is too easy to dismiss something simply because you don't understand it, however I am dubious that aliens would travel hundreds and thousands of light years to kidnap some southern American home boy and do various probes of his body but who knows it could be a great diversion tactic
I won't dismiss them there could be all sorts of reasons down to experimental aircraft ,weapons gone astray, weather balloons and maybe even something from somewhere else . They do exist because anything airborne and flying not identified is a UFO
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I flew for six years before becoming an ATCer in 1982, and I’ve seen and painted flying things I couldn’t explain. Some of them did have explanations and those are no longer “unidentified.” Others remain UFOs. No shame in that.
One evening after sunset I saw from the tower what appeared to be a HUGE airship-shaped craft hovering over the Pacific. There was a bit of a marine layer and this cigar-shaped thing appeared to be just in-and-out of the base of the clouds (it seemed to be stationary but the clouds were moving). It was brightly-lit by orange-ish lights which outlined it. Because of the city lights I was able to see that it was over the water to the west, and thus had to be no less than 10 or 15 miles away (quite possibly farther). Still, it damned-near filled one window of the tower. BIG.
I called down to the TRACON to see whether they we working it
or had any pilot reports. Nothing. I called the Center to see what they knew. Bingo!
The US Navy was running an exercise and had (apparently… I’m not a nautical guy) fired flares from numerous vessels spread over a large area centered 40 or so miles out to sea. The distribution of those ships, the differing elevations of the flares, and the cloud cover worked together to trick my brain into “seeing” a blimp-shaped, city-sized UFO. The diffusion caused by the clouds even helped define the curving surface of the thing. I was relieved but still a bit freaked. Of course, the aliens might well have been using mind control on the folks at LA Center, but that’s the story I got and it seemed plausible.
On the other hand, I’ve got some experiences (RADAR and visual) that still seem to defy explanation of the ordinary sort. I will only reveal them upon my tongue being loosened by beer or a hearty red wine…
Dave
One evening after sunset I saw from the tower what appeared to be a HUGE airship-shaped craft hovering over the Pacific. There was a bit of a marine layer and this cigar-shaped thing appeared to be just in-and-out of the base of the clouds (it seemed to be stationary but the clouds were moving). It was brightly-lit by orange-ish lights which outlined it. Because of the city lights I was able to see that it was over the water to the west, and thus had to be no less than 10 or 15 miles away (quite possibly farther). Still, it damned-near filled one window of the tower. BIG.
I called down to the TRACON to see whether they we working it
or had any pilot reports. Nothing. I called the Center to see what they knew. Bingo!The US Navy was running an exercise and had (apparently… I’m not a nautical guy) fired flares from numerous vessels spread over a large area centered 40 or so miles out to sea. The distribution of those ships, the differing elevations of the flares, and the cloud cover worked together to trick my brain into “seeing” a blimp-shaped, city-sized UFO. The diffusion caused by the clouds even helped define the curving surface of the thing. I was relieved but still a bit freaked. Of course, the aliens might well have been using mind control on the folks at LA Center, but that’s the story I got and it seemed plausible.
On the other hand, I’ve got some experiences (RADAR and visual) that still seem to defy explanation of the ordinary sort. I will only reveal them upon my tongue being loosened by beer or a hearty red wine…
Dave
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As one or two people have said, modern radars are not so susceptible to electronic quirks. In the mid sixties, the CPN 18 at Wittering was very prone to what appeared to be extremely high speed primary returns. These were identical in all respects to the returns from the then resident Victors, apart from the speed of course. The only give-away was that these targets always spiralled directly towards, or away from the overhead. Nobody who has spent time at Wittering could ever imagine alien ships deliberately targetting the place.
By the way Minesapint, I was at Northern Radar in the early 70's, and the overhead was respectably small for a long range radar. Unlike Midland Radar of course, whose infamous overhead (according to an Able-Lable) extended as far as Hong Kong.
By the way Minesapint, I was at Northern Radar in the early 70's, and the overhead was respectably small for a long range radar. Unlike Midland Radar of course, whose infamous overhead (according to an Able-Lable) extended as far as Hong Kong.
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And Belize
And the Falklands!
And the Falklands!
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"We sometimes get UFOs per-se on the college sims as "UNKNO"s; but they give out a mode-C and follow airways below controlled airspace so I highly doubt they are spaceships! "
On the college sims I highly doubt they are planes either!!!!!!
"On the college sims I highly doubt they are planes either!!!!!!
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Many moons ago....
Wet, dark night at EDI, EXS Herald (remember them?) backtracks and lines up on RWY 31 (it was then). "Oh my God Tower, do you see that UFO on the climbout?" says the startled EXS pilot". "Ah, you mean the Drambuie Liquour Factory" says I. Long silence....
The EXS pilot had probably never departed 31 before (25 had developed yet another pothole at Charlie) and the Drambuie Factory had a neon sign that looked just like the traditional flying saucer. The dark night with lashing rain set the stage perfectly and the poor pilot was suckered in. I guess he was really embarrassed, but his mistake was completely understandable ,although it did prove how easy it is to misinterpret what we see.
Oh, and personally I've only ever seen angels on radar!
Wet, dark night at EDI, EXS Herald (remember them?) backtracks and lines up on RWY 31 (it was then). "Oh my God Tower, do you see that UFO on the climbout?" says the startled EXS pilot". "Ah, you mean the Drambuie Liquour Factory" says I. Long silence....
The EXS pilot had probably never departed 31 before (25 had developed yet another pothole at Charlie) and the Drambuie Factory had a neon sign that looked just like the traditional flying saucer. The dark night with lashing rain set the stage perfectly and the poor pilot was suckered in. I guess he was really embarrassed, but his mistake was completely understandable ,although it did prove how easy it is to misinterpret what we see.
Oh, and personally I've only ever seen angels on radar!
Last edited by Talla Radar; 16th Aug 2007 at 14:04.
More than just an ATCO
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Google "UFO Belgium" .
This was taken so seriously that the Chief of the Air Staff even appeared on TV.
We didn't see anything on our radar but the F16s had a lock on.
This was taken so seriously that the Chief of the Air Staff even appeared on TV.
We didn't see anything on our radar but the F16s had a lock on.
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I can still remember quite clearly the call coming through to Eastern radar asking if we could see anything near Bentwaters one Christmas .
http://www.ufos-aliens.co.uk/cosmicrend.html
And incidently , the overhead was the same size as Northern
http://www.ufos-aliens.co.uk/cosmicrend.html
And incidently , the overhead was the same size as Northern
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There was a famous UFO sighting by pilots, ATC and a TV news team in New Zealand in 1978. I believe there is TV footage still around on the internet but not sure of its location. However, the story and still photos are here:
http://www.ufocasebook.com/newzealand1978.html
On the Beach
http://www.ufocasebook.com/newzealand1978.html
On the Beach
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Talla Radar. I had a similar experience abroad. A Mystere biz jet reported a UFO - bright, semi-circular, etc, etc. He'd actually levelled off in a layer of cirrus and was seeing the top of the Moon. Incredible but true! Saw the guy later and he said it really scared him at the time.
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One of the few times I heard a pilot use an expletive on the radio. A Wasp helicopter pilot (yep it was a while back) was returning to the airfield over the sea off the south coast at night, and asked me on Approach if I could see an aircraft to his east. I said I could see nothing on primary or secondary radar, but he was sure there was something there. I wound the range out to 80nms, and saw some airways contacts about 40nms from him away and asked if it might be them? Cue expletive... the pilot explained there was no way, from the movement of the object he could see, it was that far away. My Supervisor reported the exchange and, probably because of the language used, the pilot was asked to explain himself... he didn't back down on the version of what he saw?
A year or so later I got a call from the local constabulary asking if we ever saw anything unidentified on radar... when I told him we saw them all the time he was shocked, until I explained the difference between "unidentified" in ATC terms and the public sense... and unfortunatly that'd we'd be unlikely to be able to assist him in his enquiries. (Looking at the above posts, it seems I'm not alone
I don't quite know what I believe on UFOs... (certainly doubt Flying Saucers, there are so many differing stories and accounts perhaps we'll need UFOTC? if this goes on?)
A year or so later I got a call from the local constabulary asking if we ever saw anything unidentified on radar... when I told him we saw them all the time he was shocked, until I explained the difference between "unidentified" in ATC terms and the public sense... and unfortunatly that'd we'd be unlikely to be able to assist him in his enquiries. (Looking at the above posts, it seems I'm not alone
I don't quite know what I believe on UFOs... (certainly doubt Flying Saucers, there are so many differing stories and accounts perhaps we'll need UFOTC? if this goes on?)
