P.O.B.... Why?
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P.O.B.... Why?
This may seem like a very silly question, but I am curious...
Why is it common practice to tell ATC how many people are onboard the aircraft on takeoff, or circuit join?....
What possible effect could it have on the service the ATC provides...Every other piece of information usualy transmitted appears to have some relevent use, but why POB?
Why is it common practice to tell ATC how many people are onboard the aircraft on takeoff, or circuit join?....
What possible effect could it have on the service the ATC provides...Every other piece of information usualy transmitted appears to have some relevent use, but why POB?
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Simple answer is that if for some reason you have a problem and nose in, we can tell the firies how many people to pull out of the wreckage. If we didn't know, we would have to find out who the operator is, ring them, be connected to someone who might know, ask them, get told they haven't got a clue, find someone else etc etc. In the mean time, peoples' lives are at risk.
Hope that makes it clear - your safety.
Cheers,
NFR.
Hope that makes it clear - your safety.
Cheers,
NFR.
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who files a flight plan to go and do circuits?!
Tis the same reason they ask for details of any tattooes when you do your medical... work out whether all the body bits belong to one person or two.
Tis the same reason they ask for details of any tattooes when you do your medical... work out whether all the body bits belong to one person or two.
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Yep, it's just a safety thing in case of emergency and doesn't have any real impact on us as ATCOs.
I can't ever remember seeing POB on a filed flight plan, that is, the one we see off the AFTN that we use for ATC purposes. I can't imagine why they would file the number because there's always the possibility that, on loading a larger aircraft, someone doesn't get on for some reason. That's why there's a head count before you depart; making sure that you know how many you have on board.
I think there's still a requirement to let ATC know that you have any corpses on board (when transporting the bodies of loved ones who've passed away) so that Rescue Fire know that they've got the right number of live bodies if and when they do the rescuing.
I can't ever remember seeing POB on a filed flight plan, that is, the one we see off the AFTN that we use for ATC purposes. I can't imagine why they would file the number because there's always the possibility that, on loading a larger aircraft, someone doesn't get on for some reason. That's why there's a head count before you depart; making sure that you know how many you have on board.
I think there's still a requirement to let ATC know that you have any corpses on board (when transporting the bodies of loved ones who've passed away) so that Rescue Fire know that they've got the right number of live bodies if and when they do the rescuing.
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I recall from the college that if a commercial flight departs from an aerodrome and the offices for the airline at that aerodrome are not H24 or will close during the flight/not be open when it reaches its destination then the crew will report POB to ATC on start. Happens fairly regularly at LHR with some of the non-UK carriers heading home late in the evening. As stated this then allows the rescue services to have an idea how many people to search for in the event of a crash if they cannot contact the airline offices.
Also helps with planning for standby tickets as you know who does not have a full load
Also helps with planning for standby tickets as you know who does not have a full load
Avoid imitations
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I heard a Cessna 152 crashed into a graveyard and they dug up 127 bodies before they checked the flight plan.
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Didn't the old paper Form CA48 ask for the number of "souls on board" and the name of the A/C "Master"? I recall that the surname Green was very popular amongst Air Force captains
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It's not uncommon for survivors of runway over-runs to wander off into the boonies, in shock, away from the crash-site and the RFFS and paramedics.
In this situation, POB becomes critical to account for fatalities and survivors... especially the walking wounded suffering from shock.
In this situation, POB becomes critical to account for fatalities and survivors... especially the walking wounded suffering from shock.
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So in the event of an A/C that crashes after just pitching up ,with no prior details ,What then ??
I know what I would do, just interested in other peoples opinions, since this came up in conversation recently.
I know what I would do, just interested in other peoples opinions, since this came up in conversation recently.
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The fire service would assume that the aircraft was carrying the maximum passengers and crew and would base their figures on that number until either no bodies /survivors were found or they got updated information confirming the number on board
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The POB is actually noted on the "Supplementary Flight Plan"...that's the bit at the bottom of the form with Endurance, Emegeny, equip, etc. Not "normally" tx'd, but can be dragged out from the ATSU from whence it came. if they bothered to fill that bit in, of course. Some do, some don't, even in a single going over water 
watp,iktch
watp,iktch
Last edited by chiglet; 13th Aug 2007 at 13:02. Reason: punctuation
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C130 Accident at Eindhoven
A quick cut and paste from google
Okay - I've edited out some data but the upshot was that ATC were aware of the Pob but didn't pass it on. The Fire crew thought the crew had died and didn't enter the aircraft. The bandsman in the back couldn't get out and subsequent post mortem examination revealed they died of smoke inhalation. HAD the pob been passed and had the Fire crew been aware and entered the aircraft post accident those in the back would have survived. That's why we nag for POB.
I remain to be corrected on some of the finer details of the case as it's some years since I used to lecture on Aircraft Accident Management - but the gist of the case is about right.
FRED.
In the business of risk management, we frequently discuss abstract concepts such as active failures, latent conditions, causal effects as well as links in the chain of events that contribute to an accident. On July 15, 1996, a Belgian Air Force C-130 Hercules crashed at Eindhoven Air Base in the Netherlands, resulting in 34 fatalities and 7 serious injuries. The tragic circumstances surrounding this accident provide a poignant message that dramatically shifts abstract concepts into gut-wrenching reality.
The Hercules departed Melsbroek, Belgium, for Eindhoven Air Base via Villafranca and Rimini in Italy. On board were 37 passengers and 4 crew members. Of the 37 passengers, 36 were armed forces musicians who had given several performances in Italy.
The Hercules arrived ahead of schedule at Eindhoven, and was cleared for a visual approach to Runway 04. The bird control officer and ATC staff failed to detect that a large, mixed flock of lapwings and starlings was sitting near the runway in grass, which had recently been mowed but had not been raked.
Just prior to touchdown, approximately 500 to 600 of these small birds were observed by the flight crew, who elected to carry out a missed approach. During the overshoot, the No. 1 and No. 2 engines were severely damaged by bird ingestion. The crew also feathered the No. 3 engine, likely believing that this engine was also damaged. With only the No. 4 engine producing power, the aircraft yawed approximately 70 degrees to the left, banked approximately 35 degrees to the left, lost altitude and crashed into the ground. The fuel tanks ruptured and flames engulfed the aircraft.
While the aircraft was still airborne, ATC staff activated the crash alarm, and emergency response staff reacted immediately. A misunderstanding during the initial calls resulted in the assumption that only the flight crew was on board the aircraft, with the result that backup fire fighters did not respond. A further assumption that the flight crew could not have survived the fire led to the decision not to enter the severely damaged aircraft (see photo). Because of these assumptions, more than 25 min were lost in the rescue effort. Meanwhile, survivors were unable to evacuate the aircraft because the doors had been damaged in the crash. Survivors were evacuated to the local hospitals 40 min after the accident.
Had more effective communications taken place during the initial calls, especially regarding the number of people on board, the fire fighters would have responded accordingly and possibly reduced the number of casualties.
The Hercules departed Melsbroek, Belgium, for Eindhoven Air Base via Villafranca and Rimini in Italy. On board were 37 passengers and 4 crew members. Of the 37 passengers, 36 were armed forces musicians who had given several performances in Italy.
The Hercules arrived ahead of schedule at Eindhoven, and was cleared for a visual approach to Runway 04. The bird control officer and ATC staff failed to detect that a large, mixed flock of lapwings and starlings was sitting near the runway in grass, which had recently been mowed but had not been raked.
Just prior to touchdown, approximately 500 to 600 of these small birds were observed by the flight crew, who elected to carry out a missed approach. During the overshoot, the No. 1 and No. 2 engines were severely damaged by bird ingestion. The crew also feathered the No. 3 engine, likely believing that this engine was also damaged. With only the No. 4 engine producing power, the aircraft yawed approximately 70 degrees to the left, banked approximately 35 degrees to the left, lost altitude and crashed into the ground. The fuel tanks ruptured and flames engulfed the aircraft.
While the aircraft was still airborne, ATC staff activated the crash alarm, and emergency response staff reacted immediately. A misunderstanding during the initial calls resulted in the assumption that only the flight crew was on board the aircraft, with the result that backup fire fighters did not respond. A further assumption that the flight crew could not have survived the fire led to the decision not to enter the severely damaged aircraft (see photo). Because of these assumptions, more than 25 min were lost in the rescue effort. Meanwhile, survivors were unable to evacuate the aircraft because the doors had been damaged in the crash. Survivors were evacuated to the local hospitals 40 min after the accident.
Had more effective communications taken place during the initial calls, especially regarding the number of people on board, the fire fighters would have responded accordingly and possibly reduced the number of casualties.
I remain to be corrected on some of the finer details of the case as it's some years since I used to lecture on Aircraft Accident Management - but the gist of the case is about right.
FRED.
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The fire crews require the POB for every emergency incident. If they are told there are five souls on board and they subsequently rescue that number, it means they will not put their lives at further risk searching for more than that number in the blazing wreckage etc, etc......
A17
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Also affects the response from outside services - hospitals mainly. If an aircraft crashes and there are two hundred POB hospitals in the locality will usually start throwing the time-wasters out of casualty, clearing wards wherever they can and clearing space for triage etc. If there's two POB they don't do that. There are other procedures that come into play if there are likely to be casualties that were not on board the aircraft - if the Captain was unable to valiently steer the fireball away from the nearby school, for example.
Answer is broadly correct for the UK - can't speak for other countries - but even then varies from one place to the next because the emergency procedures are specific to each airport.
Answer is broadly correct for the UK - can't speak for other countries - but even then varies from one place to the next because the emergency procedures are specific to each airport.
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The report stated
A misunderstanding during the initial calls resulted in the assumption that only the flight crew was on board the aircraft
Atco fred stated
I've edited out some data but the upshot was that ATC were aware of the Pob but didn't pass it on.
At what point did the crew pass the POB was it after 1&2 were damaged but before feathering number 3? Just curious
A misunderstanding during the initial calls resulted in the assumption that only the flight crew was on board the aircraft
Atco fred stated
I've edited out some data but the upshot was that ATC were aware of the Pob but didn't pass it on.
At what point did the crew pass the POB was it after 1&2 were damaged but before feathering number 3? Just curious
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Out of Interest....
It is mandatory to file a Flight Plan when crossing an International FIR Boundary
But only adviseable [sp] to fill in the SPL
watp,iktch
It is mandatory to file a Flight Plan when crossing an International FIR Boundary
But only adviseable [sp] to fill in the SPL
watp,iktch