P.O.B.... Why?
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(ICAO flight plan) Not required on VFR flights between Schengen countries.
AFAIK, a flight plan is still required for every international flight, even within Schengen. The only thing that Schengen does for us is that you don't have to fly to/from customs airfields. You can just fly direct from anywhere to everywhere within the Schengen area.
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Airac
A cut and paste from the Dutch National Fire Department Report
It's a complicated scenario - classic Human Factors Swis cheese incident....
Full report can be found herehttp://www.nbdc.nl/cms/show/id=140411
I think (emphasis on the think) that a dutch C130 pilot I met told me that the ATCO, Fire Chief and someone else from the Airport all served prison sentances for their involvement - but that's just hearsay!
Fred
A cut and paste from the Dutch National Fire Department Report
The air traffic controller on duty had been informed by a private source that the Royal Netherlands Army's Brass Band was on board the aircraft. He was therefore aware that there were at least 25 people on board.
4.6. At approximately 18.04 hrs the duty commander of the air base fire service, known as the On-Scene Commander (OSC), asked air traffic control to inform him of the number of people on board. Because the air traffic control tower had no precise information in that respect, according to the air traffic controller the response was that the precise number was not known. According to the OSC, the response was 'nothing known' or something to that effect. Because the OSC was aware that the crew of a Hercules consists of at least four people, according to his own statement he then informed the EC by portable radio-telephone that scenario 2 was in force. The switchboard operator states that he did not hear this. However, in view of the hectic situation at that time he will not
Full report can be found herehttp://www.nbdc.nl/cms/show/id=140411
I think (emphasis on the think) that a dutch C130 pilot I met told me that the ATCO, Fire Chief and someone else from the Airport all served prison sentances for their involvement - but that's just hearsay!
Fred
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Re "Schengen"....
The UK is not a signatory...ergo a VFR flight plan must be filed...if crossing an International Boundary from an airfield in the UK to ...France, Belgium etc
My point is that the SPL, according to the Air Pilot, is NOT a madatory item to be added to the written FPL.
This IS a "Safety Issiue"
Oh yes, whilst I am "throwing a cob", can we [IF we have filed our VFR plans] please remember to Send a Departure Message 'cos the Sea is blinking cold at any time of year......and your mobile is out of range.....and we did NOT know that you were on a "jolly", and your wife/partner/mate can't remember what time you went from where to ?????
Fly safe
watp,iktch
The UK is not a signatory...ergo a VFR flight plan must be filed...if crossing an International Boundary from an airfield in the UK to ...France, Belgium etc
My point is that the SPL, according to the Air Pilot, is NOT a madatory item to be added to the written FPL.
This IS a "Safety Issiue"Oh yes, whilst I am "throwing a cob", can we [IF we have filed our VFR plans] please remember to Send a Departure Message 'cos the Sea is blinking cold at any time of year......and your mobile is out of range.....and we did NOT know that you were on a "jolly", and your wife/partner/mate can't remember what time you went from where to ?????
Fly safe
watp,iktch
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Did a bit of research on this a couple of years ago, and it seems there is no one single answer. RAF airfields always ask crews for POB, on the basis that the fire service know exactly how many bodies to rescue. Once they are all out there is no requirement to risk firemen's lives continuing searching burning wreckage for more. This argument falls down when considering the possibility of survivors wandering off; aircraft crashes into crowded area; or crew/pax being reduced to body parts.
As to ATC obtaining POB, captains may be reluctant to give information on radio due commercial sensitivity; it causes R/T congestion; and there is every possibility of confusion with crew/pax/babes in arms etc.
Spoke to some fire chiefs who said they would never base rescue activities on pax numbers passed by ATC. They would always use figures from airline's manifests.
Which argument is correct probably depends on whether you are talking about light club aircraft or commercial pax flights.
As to ATC obtaining POB, captains may be reluctant to give information on radio due commercial sensitivity; it causes R/T congestion; and there is every possibility of confusion with crew/pax/babes in arms etc.
Spoke to some fire chiefs who said they would never base rescue activities on pax numbers passed by ATC. They would always use figures from airline's manifests.
Which argument is correct probably depends on whether you are talking about light club aircraft or commercial pax flights.
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In my experience, the request for POB is only occasionally asked for; on the majority of departurte or arrival occasions it is not asked for. The Air Force sometimes ask for POB when you are passing overhead at 10,000 - I have often wonder why, and what they would say if I declined to tell them.
These days CAP 413 makes what you can and should say very prescriptive, and we are getting used to saying precise things so that there is no confusion. I suggest that if the request for POB is not in CAP413, it should not be asked for.
Personally I see no sensible reason to ask it, except when there is clearly and emergency situation, when it should be asked for as a matter of course.
These days CAP 413 makes what you can and should say very prescriptive, and we are getting used to saying precise things so that there is no confusion. I suggest that if the request for POB is not in CAP413, it should not be asked for.
Personally I see no sensible reason to ask it, except when there is clearly and emergency situation, when it should be asked for as a matter of course.
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Hi radarman,
Just how do those fire chiefs access POB information from an airline manifest in a timely fashion? Where we are, they'd have to wait a day or two to find a telephone number for the airline, let alone the numbers on board.
Seems to me that it's a much safer method passing on your POB info on start up or on first contact with TWR on arrival so that, if there is an emergency, you don't have to ask an already stressed pilot questions that he'd rather not answer with the increased workload.
And riverboat, it's precisely because of the possibility of an emergency that we obtain POB info before the fact, according to the training I received back in the dinosaur age.
Bottom line; I'll happily take your POB when you start or on final for your arrival runway. Yes, it may not always be completely accurate, but it's a good starting point.
Just how do those fire chiefs access POB information from an airline manifest in a timely fashion? Where we are, they'd have to wait a day or two to find a telephone number for the airline, let alone the numbers on board.
Seems to me that it's a much safer method passing on your POB info on start up or on first contact with TWR on arrival so that, if there is an emergency, you don't have to ask an already stressed pilot questions that he'd rather not answer with the increased workload.
And riverboat, it's precisely because of the possibility of an emergency that we obtain POB info before the fact, according to the training I received back in the dinosaur age.
Bottom line; I'll happily take your POB when you start or on final for your arrival runway. Yes, it may not always be completely accurate, but it's a good starting point.
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" Bottom line; I'll happily take your POB when you start or on final for your arrival runway. Yes, it may not always be completely accurate, but it's a good starting point. "
If its not accurate, whats the point. Some hapless fireman dives into a wreckage to rescue someone when the count was one out and that person was not actually there.
If its not accurate, whats the point. Some hapless fireman dives into a wreckage to rescue someone when the count was one out and that person was not actually there.
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This comes up every so often, and there is, at present, no definitive answer.
Like my colleague in La Linea (I presume you walk to work.... with your passport
) I too did some research a few years back, and spent some time talking with the fire crews at various BAA airports.
From the RFFS point of view at a major airport there are two scenarios.
1) Aircraft crashes and burns, deep six style. Fire crews are into containment of blaze. Obtaining POB as a matter of urgency is largely irrelevant. There will be plenty of time later to match numbers to bodies, or parts thereof. Not pleasant.
2) Aircraft crashes, with hull intact or bits of it, and therefore possible survivors. Fire crews will endeavour to enter what is left of the aircraft to RESCUE anyone that may be in there.
In the case of a large transport aeroplane there will not be time to count survivors milling around outside the wreckage before deciding wether to attempt an entry or not. Fire crews wearing breathing apparatus will immediately attempt a rescue.
POB figures can be inaccurate, especially when passed under stress. Therefore at large airports the rescue services (hospitals, police etc) tend to use the maximum seating capacity of the aircraft in question to tailor their response.
A few more things to consider....
When airliner crews are faced with an unusual set of circumstances, some sort of Emergency checklist is often required to be run through. As an ATCO, after having been advised of the MAYDAY /PAN, bothering the crew for the POB (Which, as we have seen above is not an immediate concern) runs the risk of interupting them at a crucial time in terms of checklist or cockpit briefing. Requests for POB should therefore be referred to the handing agent or airline concerned.
Light Aircraft of course it's very different. Counting the POB for the pilot is not exactly a big task or distraction (in my case: swivel head, "Yep I'm on my own"). Many pilots tend to volunteer the info on start / taxi, and some ATCUs ask as a matter of course. Not a big thing, but quite useful.
As I said there's no definitive answer, the above just few ideas
Rgds BEX
Like my colleague in La Linea (I presume you walk to work.... with your passport
) I too did some research a few years back, and spent some time talking with the fire crews at various BAA airports.From the RFFS point of view at a major airport there are two scenarios.
1) Aircraft crashes and burns, deep six style. Fire crews are into containment of blaze. Obtaining POB as a matter of urgency is largely irrelevant. There will be plenty of time later to match numbers to bodies, or parts thereof. Not pleasant.
2) Aircraft crashes, with hull intact or bits of it, and therefore possible survivors. Fire crews will endeavour to enter what is left of the aircraft to RESCUE anyone that may be in there.
In the case of a large transport aeroplane there will not be time to count survivors milling around outside the wreckage before deciding wether to attempt an entry or not. Fire crews wearing breathing apparatus will immediately attempt a rescue.
POB figures can be inaccurate, especially when passed under stress. Therefore at large airports the rescue services (hospitals, police etc) tend to use the maximum seating capacity of the aircraft in question to tailor their response.
A few more things to consider....
When airliner crews are faced with an unusual set of circumstances, some sort of Emergency checklist is often required to be run through. As an ATCO, after having been advised of the MAYDAY /PAN, bothering the crew for the POB (Which, as we have seen above is not an immediate concern) runs the risk of interupting them at a crucial time in terms of checklist or cockpit briefing. Requests for POB should therefore be referred to the handing agent or airline concerned.
Light Aircraft of course it's very different. Counting the POB for the pilot is not exactly a big task or distraction (in my case: swivel head, "Yep I'm on my own"). Many pilots tend to volunteer the info on start / taxi, and some ATCUs ask as a matter of course. Not a big thing, but quite useful.
As I said there's no definitive answer, the above just few ideas
Rgds BEX
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From my North Sea days when we did a corpse flight the body was always fully manifested as a passenger just in case we came down and SAR found the dead 'un and stopped searching for a live one of us.
Always made me wonder about SAR common sense, the stiff always wore a body bag rather than an immersion suit and life jacket
Wonder what they'd do if they found the box of body parts I sometimes get to fly
Always made me wonder about SAR common sense, the stiff always wore a body bag rather than an immersion suit and life jacket
Wonder what they'd do if they found the box of body parts I sometimes get to fly
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Surely knowing the total pob can only be of benefit. If the accident is major and there is no chance of survivors, then fair enough, the head count is going to be irrelevant in the initial actions. However if the accident is survivable then that figure becomes highly significant. Would not the Belgian disaster have had a totally different outcome had the POB been correctly passed to the Crew Chief?
Surely the fact that lives may be saved by this simple measure is enough to justify it?
I can't believe that any responsible Captain leaves the ground without knowing exactly how many people are in his care, so it should not be a major task to be able to provide that figure. And as for cluttering up the RT with unnecessary chatter - how much time does it take to add "Request total persons on board" to a start / taxi / departure clearance?
Surely the fact that lives may be saved by this simple measure is enough to justify it?
I can't believe that any responsible Captain leaves the ground without knowing exactly how many people are in his care, so it should not be a major task to be able to provide that figure. And as for cluttering up the RT with unnecessary chatter - how much time does it take to add "Request total persons on board" to a start / taxi / departure clearance?
More than just an ATCO
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I think (emphasis on the think) that a dutch C130 pilot I met told me that the ATCO, Fire Chief and someone else from the Airport all served prison sentances for their involvement - but that's just hearsay!
On March 1 that year both were found not guilty on all charges by a Court Martial in Arnhem. The court concluded that better information, faster intervention or assistance from the regional firebrigade would not have led to fewer victims. The two, who had been put on non-active status shortly after the accident received official apologies and a financial settlement from the KLu in 2004
Edited to insert "not" in penultimate sentence
Last edited by Lon More; 17th Aug 2007 at 14:29.
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Raven 30,
When did you last ask for total persons on board? We do it for every flight, and it can lead to all sorts of confusion and R/T congestion. Many of those pilots who understand English reasonably well still manage to confuse pax figure with total, leading to further questioning to get the figure we want. Those whose English is a bit dodgy (and there's a fair few of those) will read back any figure that comes into their heads, including QNH, aircraft type, and slot time. It can sometimes take up to half a dozen calls to elicit the required information.
When did you last ask for total persons on board? We do it for every flight, and it can lead to all sorts of confusion and R/T congestion. Many of those pilots who understand English reasonably well still manage to confuse pax figure with total, leading to further questioning to get the figure we want. Those whose English is a bit dodgy (and there's a fair few of those) will read back any figure that comes into their heads, including QNH, aircraft type, and slot time. It can sometimes take up to half a dozen calls to elicit the required information.
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Originally Posted by radarman
When did you last ask for total persons on board? We do it for every flight....
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Spitoon,
We keep on at the pilot until we are confident we have the required figure. Hence my question to Raven who seemed to think that eliciting the information was a simple matter. Having got the POB, we pass it to the crash crews shortly before each movement (military requirement). How they use that information is up to them. If the crashed aircraft is reasonably intact they should confidently be able to rescue the correct number of survivors. But the POB figure is academic if it's a real spear in. How do you know if you have got everybody out if all you have is a mismatched collection of heads, legs and torsos?
Are there any fire crews PPRuNeing who could give us their side of the picture?
We keep on at the pilot until we are confident we have the required figure. Hence my question to Raven who seemed to think that eliciting the information was a simple matter. Having got the POB, we pass it to the crash crews shortly before each movement (military requirement). How they use that information is up to them. If the crashed aircraft is reasonably intact they should confidently be able to rescue the correct number of survivors. But the POB figure is academic if it's a real spear in. How do you know if you have got everybody out if all you have is a mismatched collection of heads, legs and torsos?
Are there any fire crews PPRuNeing who could give us their side of the picture?
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Radarman
Can only speak for the mil unit where I work, and we are not that interested where they are all sitting - only the total number of people on the aircraft. If a controller asks a non regular operator for the pob, they often get passed the number of passengers, and he / she then has to ascertain if that figure includes the crew - as you alluded to in your post - hence it is much easier to request the total number of people on board at the outset.
AllI can say is that it works for us, apart from the odd misunderstanding, and that is normally down to foreign pilots misunderstanding the request - to quote a recent example - "request your pob?" answer "radar advisory please"!!
Raven
Can only speak for the mil unit where I work, and we are not that interested where they are all sitting - only the total number of people on the aircraft. If a controller asks a non regular operator for the pob, they often get passed the number of passengers, and he / she then has to ascertain if that figure includes the crew - as you alluded to in your post - hence it is much easier to request the total number of people on board at the outset.
AllI can say is that it works for us, apart from the odd misunderstanding, and that is normally down to foreign pilots misunderstanding the request - to quote a recent example - "request your pob?" answer "radar advisory please"!!
Raven
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Thanks radarman, my concern/interest was that even if the POB was established, unless there are clear procedures for ensuring the information is passed to the fire crews routinely there is dubious value in getting the info in the first place - mainly because after an accident communications are usually confused or subject to misinterpretation.
However, whether there are real benefits in establishing POB for every movement - particularly in the civil world - is another matter. It would be good to hear from some fire crew for their opinion. When I last spoke to any fire crew on the subject the general view was that if it was in any way safe to enter the aircraft they would do so in order to check for casualties because it was rare that they could positively identify all occupants (some of whom might have wandered off...) and you couldn't trust POB reports (although this was in the context of SPL numbers).
However, whether there are real benefits in establishing POB for every movement - particularly in the civil world - is another matter. It would be good to hear from some fire crew for their opinion. When I last spoke to any fire crew on the subject the general view was that if it was in any way safe to enter the aircraft they would do so in order to check for casualties because it was rare that they could positively identify all occupants (some of whom might have wandered off...) and you couldn't trust POB reports (although this was in the context of SPL numbers).
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ATCO1962 - "Precisely because of the possibility of an emergency" is the reason you give for asking for POB. That's a bit strong! If you asked potentially relevant questions in preparation for a possible emergency, you should be asking about the amount of fuel on board, oil in the engines, state of mind of the pilot etc. It doesn't make sense in a busy radio environment to ask questions about a notional "possible emergency", unless you have reason to believe that something might turn into an emergency.
BEX - No argument except for the asking of a GA pilot for POB being "not a big thing but quite useful". In what way is it useful? Can you give us an example of an occasion when asking this superfluous question was actually useful?
Riverboat
BEX - No argument except for the asking of a GA pilot for POB being "not a big thing but quite useful". In what way is it useful? Can you give us an example of an occasion when asking this superfluous question was actually useful?
Riverboat
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BEX - No argument except for the asking of a GA pilot for POB being "not a big thing but quite useful". In what way is it useful? Can you give us an example of an occasion when asking this superfluous question was actually useful?
Local plod, and non airfield Fire Service woudl be interested. Given the small numbers of people involved, rounding up the wandering walking wounded is a practical proposition.
I recall an AA5 that crashed on a mountainside and the fog came down shortly after. One of the survivors had wandered off in a daze, the rest of them stayed put but in bad condition and not really able to tell the rescuers about the other chap. Fortunately POB was recorded by the departure ATSU, and he was picked up by RAF mountain rescue soon after.
Rgds BEX