Question for London ATC
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Question for London ATC
Why does every ATCO in London insist on, "Contact London on xxx.xxx, report heading". Do you do hand-offs and coordinate radar headings, BEFORE, effecting the hand-off? Or do you give a plane a heading, hand them off, and let the next ATCO work out the details.
Ranting again,
GF
Ranting again,
GF
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We work on a silent handover principle.
The electronic offer from one sector to another is for level only. If the aircraft is on a heading or speed, the tactical can tell the aircraft to report on first contact with the next sector. This cuts down on phone calls that would be made by the planner.
Just out of interest, why the rant?
CF
The electronic offer from one sector to another is for level only. If the aircraft is on a heading or speed, the tactical can tell the aircraft to report on first contact with the next sector. This cuts down on phone calls that would be made by the planner.
Just out of interest, why the rant?
CF
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In the london TMA, there is no planner and one coordinator takes and makes the phone calls for up to 4 or 5 "tactical controllers", So the need for a phone call to say "so and so is on a heading," would take up a lot of time. Asking the pilot to report it cuts this out. the same goes for speed restrictions. Sometimes you can even ask the pilot to giv e you his speed restriction if he forgets as traffic right up his chuff not working you yet tends to be a giveaway!!
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So I presume the TMA does not use the same computerised system as surrounding sectors? If they did it would be more straightforward as they could simply place the current heading in the label for the next sector to see.
Thread Starter
Ollie A: that's what I thought happened.
The rant is that it does clutters up the freq and is UNHEARD of elsewhere. Reporting heading has gone out with the Carter administration or was it the PATCO strike. Anyway, our system uses vectors and is obsolete, but doesn't require it. Controllers do the coord on hotline.
The rant is that it does clutters up the freq and is UNHEARD of elsewhere. Reporting heading has gone out with the Carter administration or was it the PATCO strike. Anyway, our system uses vectors and is obsolete, but doesn't require it. Controllers do the coord on hotline.
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So I presume the TMA does not use the same computerised system as surrounding sectors? If they did it would be more straightforward as they could simply place the current heading in the label for the next sector to see.
Were we to have to make a telephone call to the next sector to advise the hdg that each a/c is on (as 90% will be on a hdg given the number of a/c in such a small piece of airspace), then the operation would grind to a halt. Hence we simply ask you to report the hdg we have assigned you to the next sector.
In terms of it 'cluttering up the freq', well yes, I guess it's 2 words that in an ideal world we wouldn't have you saying but hey, we're not living in an ideal world.
To try and compare the UK ATC system to yours (I guess USA??) is slightly bizarre given the amount of airspace you get to play with
No, it's not only London ATC that do this. Telling you to report your heading (speed etc.) to the next sector also serves as a reminder that you are still on a vector (or other pertinent restriction). Believe it or not, although rare, there are some cowboys out there who (unless reminded) mistakenly think that switching to another frequency cancels all previous ATC assigned instructions.
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Looking at the airspace designs the big US terminal airspaces seem to have significantly more movements/ km3 of Class D or above sky (some pretty small 'TMAs' compared to London) than the UK. But it is a different system, technology, set of rules so would agree comparison is tough.
Thread Starter
Giles:
Line and Wait is much better than position and hold. We do use much US lingo that is terrible, but bizarre or unsafe? LAHSO is useful for some airports at moving more tin, but a number of operators refuse it. "Moving tin" is the operational motto of ATC, we still only have slots at a few airports. I can file a flight plan Hartford to Greensboro, NC through the Northeast region and get a clearance in 10 minutes. True, we have only one country to worry 'bout.
I don't understand "number 9, cleared to land" either. Trying to figure out what the point is? OTOH, I don't find it unsafe, if the guy ahead doesn't make the turn-off, I'm going around! Chicago IS bizarre and earns its rep everyday.
Line and Wait is much better than position and hold. We do use much US lingo that is terrible, but bizarre or unsafe? LAHSO is useful for some airports at moving more tin, but a number of operators refuse it. "Moving tin" is the operational motto of ATC, we still only have slots at a few airports. I can file a flight plan Hartford to Greensboro, NC through the Northeast region and get a clearance in 10 minutes. True, we have only one country to worry 'bout.
I don't understand "number 9, cleared to land" either. Trying to figure out what the point is? OTOH, I don't find it unsafe, if the guy ahead doesn't make the turn-off, I'm going around! Chicago IS bizarre and earns its rep everyday.
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GF
I'd put "position and hold" in the bizarre category simply because, as you rightly say, there is a better phrase available and yet in all the years I've been flying the FAA have not taken it up.
You raise an interesting point about "number 9 cleared to land". There are places in the world where, subject to certain conditions, an aircraft can land on an already occupied runway. Is it the case that at all US airports if the preceeding traffic is still on the runway (but far enough down to be of no concern) that I have to go around, even if I have been told "cleared to land number 9"? The phraseology used, combined with experience gained by a pilot in other parts of the world, may lead to an unexpected outcome for the controller.
As for LAHSO... well anyone who uses that must be barking (in my humble opinion of course!!!)
G W-H
I'd put "position and hold" in the bizarre category simply because, as you rightly say, there is a better phrase available and yet in all the years I've been flying the FAA have not taken it up.
You raise an interesting point about "number 9 cleared to land". There are places in the world where, subject to certain conditions, an aircraft can land on an already occupied runway. Is it the case that at all US airports if the preceeding traffic is still on the runway (but far enough down to be of no concern) that I have to go around, even if I have been told "cleared to land number 9"? The phraseology used, combined with experience gained by a pilot in other parts of the world, may lead to an unexpected outcome for the controller.
As for LAHSO... well anyone who uses that must be barking (in my humble opinion of course!!!)
G W-H
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Giles
What is wrong with saying Maintain?...I found it odd when I moved over but soon got used to it.
You already said that "Maintain XXX" to you means "climb XXX" so should be no issue. Just different phraseology. Not bizarre or unsafe surely?
What is wrong with saying Maintain?...I found it odd when I moved over but soon got used to it.
You already said that "Maintain XXX" to you means "climb XXX" so should be no issue. Just different phraseology. Not bizarre or unsafe surely?
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If you are already level at a level, then use "maintain" (but why even bother?)
If you need to climb to reach a level, use "climb"
If you need to descend to reach a level, use "descend"
Why screw about with basic English language?
Ollie A
As for the computerised system - Swanwick have the computerised system but they still tell you to report heading - why? well apart from the fact that even though each tactical controller has a planner (coordinator), for him or her to make a phone call for each A/C on a heading would be a huge, pointles workload.
But you ask why would they have to do this if it is computerised? The fact is unless the planner (who listens in on calls), actually input a symbol every time a Tactical Controller put an A/C on a heading to indicate it was under a heading instruction and similarly used the keyboard to remove the symbol every time an A/C is instructed to resume own navigation, then how is the next (receiving) sector to know that the A/C is on a heading and not it's own navigation merely by looking at the screen?
If you need to climb to reach a level, use "climb"
If you need to descend to reach a level, use "descend"
Why screw about with basic English language?
Ollie A
As for the computerised system - Swanwick have the computerised system but they still tell you to report heading - why? well apart from the fact that even though each tactical controller has a planner (coordinator), for him or her to make a phone call for each A/C on a heading would be a huge, pointles workload.
But you ask why would they have to do this if it is computerised? The fact is unless the planner (who listens in on calls), actually input a symbol every time a Tactical Controller put an A/C on a heading to indicate it was under a heading instruction and similarly used the keyboard to remove the symbol every time an A/C is instructed to resume own navigation, then how is the next (receiving) sector to know that the A/C is on a heading and not it's own navigation merely by looking at the screen?
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Married A Canadian
The Collins Pocket Dictionary gives us "maintain vb 1. to continue or retain" yet in your part of the world you are using it to cause us to change or discontinue our present level. Surely that comes nicely under the heading "bizarre"?
As for the further ramifications of the use of "maintain" in this way, I believe UK ATCOs have recently been issued with an ATSIN warning against the use of "maintain" with a level following an incident with an aircraft from your side of the Atlantic which changed levels following a slip of the tongue when a UK ATCO used "maintain" to mean "continue/retain your level".
GF
Your example illustrates my point perfectly. Everywhere else in the world it would be reasonable to assume that the controller wants me to continue at my present level and one of us has misheard two/three (especially since the use of "tree" does not seem fashionable). I would therefore have to go back and check whether I should be maintaining FL270 or climbing FL370. Yet there is a phrase available which would remove this potential for misunderstanding and uses words that retain the same meaning as in the world outside aviation. That phrase..........
"Climb FL370"
I know it has been this way a long time, so this foible is well known. I still think it is bizarre.
G W-H
The Collins Pocket Dictionary gives us "maintain vb 1. to continue or retain" yet in your part of the world you are using it to cause us to change or discontinue our present level. Surely that comes nicely under the heading "bizarre"?
As for the further ramifications of the use of "maintain" in this way, I believe UK ATCOs have recently been issued with an ATSIN warning against the use of "maintain" with a level following an incident with an aircraft from your side of the Atlantic which changed levels following a slip of the tongue when a UK ATCO used "maintain" to mean "continue/retain your level".
GF
Your example illustrates my point perfectly. Everywhere else in the world it would be reasonable to assume that the controller wants me to continue at my present level and one of us has misheard two/three (especially since the use of "tree" does not seem fashionable). I would therefore have to go back and check whether I should be maintaining FL270 or climbing FL370. Yet there is a phrase available which would remove this potential for misunderstanding and uses words that retain the same meaning as in the world outside aviation. That phrase..........
"Climb FL370"
I know it has been this way a long time, so this foible is well known. I still think it is bizarre.
G W-H
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Back to the question of asking Acft to "report heading/speed".
As said above, using the phone each and every time to announce the heading (or speed) to the next sector would be a huge workload (in approach), and is not justified (most of the time).
Another factor is that it takes time to place the phone call. I mean, if you place that call, you have to wait for the OK of the next ATCO before you can "shoot" the acft on the next frequency. The delay is not very long for 1 acft (let's say 30sec), but if you do it every time...
As said above, using the phone each and every time to announce the heading (or speed) to the next sector would be a huge workload (in approach), and is not justified (most of the time).
Another factor is that it takes time to place the phone call. I mean, if you place that call, you have to wait for the OK of the next ATCO before you can "shoot" the acft on the next frequency. The delay is not very long for 1 acft (let's say 30sec), but if you do it every time...