foreign flight crew and atc poll
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foreign flight crew and atc poll
Poll idea
With ever increasing foreign flight crew operating with UK carriers and the associated difficulties with RT I hear atc'ers have drawn up an "unofficial" top ten worst.... who would be on yours...
With ever increasing foreign flight crew operating with UK carriers and the associated difficulties with RT I hear atc'ers have drawn up an "unofficial" top ten worst.... who would be on yours...
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You know, I find it very strange...or perhaps not.
Although several languages are officially recognised by ICAO for ATC purposes, it seems that the Brits are constantly complaining about the proper use of the English language during ATC transmissions.
Now, having flown over quite a lot of the world, I very rarely have trouble understanding ATC folks, but then again perhaps I have a 'tuned' ear for these occasions.
One must remember that when foreign flight crew speak English, it is often a darn sight better than some ATC folks (and many pilots) could do in the foreigner's native language....those who reside in glass houses should be the last to throw stones.
Although several languages are officially recognised by ICAO for ATC purposes, it seems that the Brits are constantly complaining about the proper use of the English language during ATC transmissions.
Now, having flown over quite a lot of the world, I very rarely have trouble understanding ATC folks, but then again perhaps I have a 'tuned' ear for these occasions.
One must remember that when foreign flight crew speak English, it is often a darn sight better than some ATC folks (and many pilots) could do in the foreigner's native language....those who reside in glass houses should be the last to throw stones.
Buttonpusher
First post eh ? Well welcome to Pprune. Let's see hook set/checked ...bait set/checked and toss !!! Besides what specifically are you talking about ? non compliance with ICAO standards or just hard to understand accents ?? I think both subjects have been beaten to death before. ( I really meant the welcome !)
ICAO standard phrases are important as an aid to communication (which is a two way process.) Most non-native speakers are very adept at manipulating ICAO standard phrases.
411a is quite right not to cast aspersions and is, in my experience of life on the same planet as him, correct that it is easier to talk in one's native tongue and not always easy to confine transmissions to correct phrases. On the whole the Brits are not bad, nor are most Europeans. However, Americans seem to take a delight in mangling the language of Shakespeare into flowery phrases that lose concision (witness the current leader of the free world.)
411a is quite right not to cast aspersions and is, in my experience of life on the same planet as him, correct that it is easier to talk in one's native tongue and not always easy to confine transmissions to correct phrases. On the whole the Brits are not bad, nor are most Europeans. However, Americans seem to take a delight in mangling the language of Shakespeare into flowery phrases that lose concision (witness the current leader of the free world.)
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mini cooper, for heaven's sake, give it a rest! We have as many different accents here in UK as there are nationalities who fly over the place. Don't get drawn into these peurile threads begun by brainless children who have nothing better to do than slag off foreigners.
Get a life and ignore idiots like 3 grns.
Get a life and ignore idiots like 3 grns.
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While in JED during the last Hajj, I met a First Officer from China Eastern...he was assigned to the A340.
His English was superb in conversation, and indeed I heard him on the R/T the next day...English clear as a bell.
His did say that some of their more senior Captains had a slight problem with English, but this was under intense rectification, so expect to see improvement...says he.
Ah, yes, almost forgot...he is now 26 (as I recall) and in another year will be a brand new Commander assigned to A320 aircraft.
5 will get you 10 he is a superb pilot as well....the younger reserved and well spoken ones usually are.
His English was superb in conversation, and indeed I heard him on the R/T the next day...English clear as a bell.
His did say that some of their more senior Captains had a slight problem with English, but this was under intense rectification, so expect to see improvement...says he.
Ah, yes, almost forgot...he is now 26 (as I recall) and in another year will be a brand new Commander assigned to A320 aircraft.
5 will get you 10 he is a superb pilot as well....the younger reserved and well spoken ones usually are.
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411a - what a load of tosh
Being reserved and well spoken does NOT make one a good pilot/operator/manager and so on.. Likewise being loud and gobby doesn't either. In fact, bearing doesn't have anything to do with it
And though you're correct about ICAO permitting home languages, there was a very nasty accident at CDG some time ago when a "shed" had it's flightdeck sliced open by the wing of a french MD80. The investigation concluded that the use of two languages was a direct cause of the accident
Actually rubik101 - I don't think anyone's slagging off foreigners per se, but did you hear the clip on Youtube pertaining to be JFK ground trying to talk to a Chinese crew? - and then you people wonder why runway incursions happen?? Please spare the PC stuff.. Besides, why would ICAO now be forcing all non native speakers of English to undergo an ICAO English test - with attainment required at level 4 and above, if understanding the international language of the air wasn't actually a problem!!!!!
Being reserved and well spoken does NOT make one a good pilot/operator/manager and so on.. Likewise being loud and gobby doesn't either. In fact, bearing doesn't have anything to do with itAnd though you're correct about ICAO permitting home languages, there was a very nasty accident at CDG some time ago when a "shed" had it's flightdeck sliced open by the wing of a french MD80. The investigation concluded that the use of two languages was a direct cause of the accident
Actually rubik101 - I don't think anyone's slagging off foreigners per se, but did you hear the clip on Youtube pertaining to be JFK ground trying to talk to a Chinese crew? - and then you people wonder why runway incursions happen?? Please spare the PC stuff.. Besides, why would ICAO now be forcing all non native speakers of English to undergo an ICAO English test - with attainment required at level 4 and above, if understanding the international language of the air wasn't actually a problem!!!!!
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Mini Cooper, that's odd, because I've never seen a China Southern a/c in at LHR. Maybe that's why 'we' were 'throwing a wobbler'...we couldn't see it?
Yes, there are some airlines we are more careful with than others (Where I might tell BAWxxx or VIRxxx to "Give way to the Air Portugal 320 from the left, then turn left on bravo, foxtrot, hold at foxtrot two", I would probably tell an Air China, or TAM to "Hold short of bravo", and then go back once the Air Portugal has gone) just as I'm sure all you flight crew are more wary about flying into particular airports/through particular countries' airspace. However, I highly doubt there is any such thing as a 'top ten list' being compiled.
I do wince when my colleagues sometimes do criticise crews who probably only know 100 words of English, if that. However, I'm afraid pressure is only increasing on us, and sometimes it does get on top of us.
Yes, there are some airlines we are more careful with than others (Where I might tell BAWxxx or VIRxxx to "Give way to the Air Portugal 320 from the left, then turn left on bravo, foxtrot, hold at foxtrot two", I would probably tell an Air China, or TAM to "Hold short of bravo", and then go back once the Air Portugal has gone) just as I'm sure all you flight crew are more wary about flying into particular airports/through particular countries' airspace. However, I highly doubt there is any such thing as a 'top ten list' being compiled.
I do wince when my colleagues sometimes do criticise crews who probably only know 100 words of English, if that. However, I'm afraid pressure is only increasing on us, and sometimes it does get on top of us.
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Gets my goat!
The ATC in the UK is very good on the most part but why oh why won't any one use the ICAO standard "hold short" it would save so much verbage! and leave ATC and the guy at 300ft in no doubt that you are going to "hold short of RWY XX" when you first contact the tower.
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The problem is often with so-called "native English speakers" who think they're speaking English, but with such a thick accent and so much slang and non-standard phraseology, they might as well be speaking Outer Patagonian.
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Whiteknight,
I work with 14 (yes fourteen !) different nationalities, and have learned to value clarity above all else, especially as a native speaker. I listened to the youtube as you suggested, what excuse did the ground controller have for not using english like it was his first language.
If I speak english with another national, and am not getting the expected response I modify the way I speak till we have understanding
I work with 14 (yes fourteen !) different nationalities, and have learned to value clarity above all else, especially as a native speaker. I listened to the youtube as you suggested, what excuse did the ground controller have for not using english like it was his first language.
If I speak english with another national, and am not getting the expected response I modify the way I speak till we have understanding
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That's a fair point rmac - HOWEVER, ICAO is the crowd who wants the English tests doing, would it be done without a good reason???
I work with seventy-five(75) different nationalities on the flight-deck and I believe one hundred and one(101) in the cabin by the way
I work with seventy-five(75) different nationalities on the flight-deck and I believe one hundred and one(101) in the cabin by the way
3 years of Drama School, old bean. Proper enunciation.
"Wun, Too, Tree, Fower, Fyfe....etc". Try saying them into a tape recorder/Mobile Phone and playing them back. Amamzing how much easier they are to hear than "One, Two, Three, Four, Five" , especially through a cheapo microphone.
BTW, WTF is "Coming Down" in relation to Transponders?
"Wun, Too, Tree, Fower, Fyfe....etc". Try saying them into a tape recorder/Mobile Phone and playing them back. Amamzing how much easier they are to hear than "One, Two, Three, Four, Five" , especially through a cheapo microphone.
BTW, WTF is "Coming Down" in relation to Transponders?
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A and C.
When I was validating at EGKK, where "Hold short rwyxx" is not used, the logic was that if you don't even mention the runway there can be no excuse for the flight crew to think they can enter it. Ending the taxi instructions with something like... ",Holding Point A3", is clear, concise, and should leave the pilots in no doubt as to their clearance limit.
It is a method that I still use today and despite working on a very poorly signed, designed, and taxiway designated airport, I have very few problems with pilots not understanding exactly where they should stop.
For the record, and I apologise in advance to the well disciplined of you out there, the Americans come up worst for me everytime for RT. Daily (and I should add that many of these are home base pilots), no details on first contact for clearance, poor and inacurate readbacks or just plain incorrect readbacks. Then you have to love the impatient tone when you force the correct readback. It feels like your pulling teeth!
We ATCers don't do this for sh*ts and giggles, it's to protect our licence and livelyhoods and more importantly, protect all on and around the airfield from incidents caused by poor RT... And to stay one step ahead of the tirade, yes, some controllers are very poor too!!!
Cheers CR.
PS Good post Seaman! As you say, if you wanna fly internationally, learn English!
When I was validating at EGKK, where "Hold short rwyxx" is not used, the logic was that if you don't even mention the runway there can be no excuse for the flight crew to think they can enter it. Ending the taxi instructions with something like... ",Holding Point A3", is clear, concise, and should leave the pilots in no doubt as to their clearance limit.
It is a method that I still use today and despite working on a very poorly signed, designed, and taxiway designated airport, I have very few problems with pilots not understanding exactly where they should stop.
For the record, and I apologise in advance to the well disciplined of you out there, the Americans come up worst for me everytime for RT. Daily (and I should add that many of these are home base pilots), no details on first contact for clearance, poor and inacurate readbacks or just plain incorrect readbacks. Then you have to love the impatient tone when you force the correct readback. It feels like your pulling teeth!
We ATCers don't do this for sh*ts and giggles, it's to protect our licence and livelyhoods and more importantly, protect all on and around the airfield from incidents caused by poor RT... And to stay one step ahead of the tirade, yes, some controllers are very poor too!!!
Cheers CR.
PS Good post Seaman! As you say, if you wanna fly internationally, learn English!
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The only real problem I have ever had was with Korean. I was pointing a formation of pretty rapidly moving and fast descending f18s at them and gave them a quick traffic statement incase they got uneasy. The response was 'OK we turn left now' (traffic from left)
. Probably to blame myself but how they got that out of what I said is lost on me still.
. Probably to blame myself but how they got that out of what I said is lost on me still.
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Dear oh dear.... some people on here have never lived!! Foreign crews operating into Heathrow can often speak far better English than the ATCOs! Things may have been different 40 years ago when it was necessary to get someone from one airline office to translate instructions to two crews. When I worked abroad I asked one pilot if he carried a transponder - "Negative, fishing equipment" was the response.
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Seaman,
Who's in a competition about numbers of nationalities ?
You confirm my point and miss it yourself at the same time, incredible.
English is the common language not native one in Aviation (and international business for that matter), and native speakers need to recognise that and speak to be understood by others too.
Did you listen to the JFK tape, the controller was awful, and he was a native speaker, unlike the others. The Chinese pilots english was acceptable, he understood the controllers words, just not what he meant.
Refreshing reflections from tobzalp and HD on the subject
Who's in a competition about numbers of nationalities ?
You confirm my point and miss it yourself at the same time, incredible.
English is the common language not native one in Aviation (and international business for that matter), and native speakers need to recognise that and speak to be understood by others too.
Did you listen to the JFK tape, the controller was awful, and he was a native speaker, unlike the others. The Chinese pilots english was acceptable, he understood the controllers words, just not what he meant.
Refreshing reflections from tobzalp and HD on the subject
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A few years ago in HongKong I was working with a fellow Scotsman in the tower.I was doing GMC and he was Tower south.Anyway one of the Canadians came up to us.''Gee you got to feel sorry for the poor Chinese pilots with you two.They must think they have landed in Glasgow''.Then he burst into a very good version of Donald where's your Troosers.(Circa Andy Stewart from 19oatcakes).That was the good thing there.We just got on with it,but accepted people from other countries.
I seldom had or have problems.Just keep it standard,take your time,and listen carefully to all readbacks.
I seldom had or have problems.Just keep it standard,take your time,and listen carefully to all readbacks.