"Cleared to land, behind the ABC123" at EGLL?
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"Cleared to land, behind the ABC123" at EGLL?
Is it true that an aircraft on final at Heathrow may be cleared to land even if the aircraft in front has not yet vacated the runway? (Provided it is at least 2500m from the threshold...)
...I thought these rules only applied in the States.
...I thought these rules only applied in the States.
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Don't recall the exact rules/distances as it's been a while and Gonzo or someone else will be along in a minute, but the answer is yes.
A lander at LHR can be cleared to land whilst the preceeding landing aircraft (or a departure) is still on the runway subject to certain conditions being met.
Also happens at Gatwick and possibly one or two other places as well I think.
A lander at LHR can be cleared to land whilst the preceeding landing aircraft (or a departure) is still on the runway subject to certain conditions being met.
Also happens at Gatwick and possibly one or two other places as well I think.
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Thanks.
How will the pilot be able to tell whether the aircraft in front is in fact 2500m ahead when crossing the threshold?
I'm guessing maybe TCAS?
Or is it down to ATC, i.e. if the landed aircraft does not satisfy the separation requirement a 'go-around' will be issued to the approaching aircraft...?
How will the pilot be able to tell whether the aircraft in front is in fact 2500m ahead when crossing the threshold?
I'm guessing maybe TCAS?
Or is it down to ATC, i.e. if the landed aircraft does not satisfy the separation requirement a 'go-around' will be issued to the approaching aircraft...?
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Gonzo
....by the time the landing aircraft crosses the threshold not when the clearance is issued!! The clearance can be issued from the moment the preceeding touches the deck.
For the sake of clarity that's what I've always understood and taught!
ShuttleSixYankee
Any flightcrew operating into LL should be briefed on our published procedures. If a controller uses this clearance they are guarunteeing 2500m of clear runwway or that the preceeding will have vacated by the time you cross the threshold, the key point being is that we are keeping responsibility for maintaining separation, unlike a 'land after' clearance where we are calling the traffic but not able to guaruntee any specific amount of runway, the responsibility goes to the captain if he/she accepts a land after!
The one ahead, if still on the runway, must be 2500m down the runway
For the sake of clarity that's what I've always understood and taught!
ShuttleSixYankee
How will the pilot be able to tell whether the aircraft in front is in fact 2500m ahead when crossing the threshold?
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Ah, so there is a difference between that clearance when compared with the 'land-after' clearance; the former guaranteeing the necessary separation.
Thanks for clearing it up.
Thanks for clearing it up.
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And just to clear up Gonzo's phraseology (they don't do it much at Heathrow so forgive him!). If you are following a lander then the words are "land after the 757" not after the landed, cleared to land. If the aircraft ahead is a departure then the words are "after departing 757, cleared to land".
Ref MATS Part 1 (CAP 493), note that in the case of "land after" it is the pilots responsibility to ensure adequate separation which is why we DON'T use the "cleared" word (hence Yellow snow your post is also a bit wide of the mark).
After the departing xxx cleared to land requires the ATCO to ensure the appropriate separation hence use of "cleared".
Extract from the good book:
When aircraft are using the same runway, a landing aircraft may be permitted to touch
down before a preceding landing aircraft which has landed is clear of the runway
provided that:
a) the runway is long enough to allow safe separation between the two aircraft and
there is no evidence to indicate that braking may be adversely affected;
b) it is during daylight hours;
c) the preceding landing aircraft is not required to backtrack in order to vacate the
runway;
d) the controller is satisfied that the landing aircraft will be able to see the preceding
aircraft which has landed clearly and continuously, until it has vacated the runway;
and
e) the pilot of the following aircraft is warned. (Responsibility for ensuring adequate
separation rests with the pilot of the following aircraft.)
The following bit refers to the after departing cleared to land. The actual procedures are individually approved for each aerodrome by the CAA and currently used(I Think) at Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted and Manchester:
Unless specific procedures have been approved by the CAA, a landing aircraft shall
not be permitted to cross the beginning of the runway on its final approach until a
preceding aircraft, departing from the same runway, is airborne.
Lesson over. All get reading before your LCE!!!
Have a nice day
Ref MATS Part 1 (CAP 493), note that in the case of "land after" it is the pilots responsibility to ensure adequate separation which is why we DON'T use the "cleared" word (hence Yellow snow your post is also a bit wide of the mark).
After the departing xxx cleared to land requires the ATCO to ensure the appropriate separation hence use of "cleared".
Extract from the good book:
When aircraft are using the same runway, a landing aircraft may be permitted to touch
down before a preceding landing aircraft which has landed is clear of the runway
provided that:
a) the runway is long enough to allow safe separation between the two aircraft and
there is no evidence to indicate that braking may be adversely affected;
b) it is during daylight hours;
c) the preceding landing aircraft is not required to backtrack in order to vacate the
runway;
d) the controller is satisfied that the landing aircraft will be able to see the preceding
aircraft which has landed clearly and continuously, until it has vacated the runway;
and
e) the pilot of the following aircraft is warned. (Responsibility for ensuring adequate
separation rests with the pilot of the following aircraft.)
The following bit refers to the after departing cleared to land. The actual procedures are individually approved for each aerodrome by the CAA and currently used(I Think) at Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted and Manchester:
Unless specific procedures have been approved by the CAA, a landing aircraft shall
not be permitted to cross the beginning of the runway on its final approach until a
preceding aircraft, departing from the same runway, is airborne.
Lesson over. All get reading before your LCE!!!
Have a nice day
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I'm sure Gonzo and Yellow Snow use the phraseology as much as the rest of us do at Heathrow. The phraseology above is indeed correct
"After the landed B757, cleared to land" or
"After the departing B757, cleared to land"
Both are correct. Both are a landing clearance and hence we DO us the word "cleared".
Of course these are a completely different kettle of fish to
"Land After"
Never failed an LCE check using this, probably never will!
Have a nice evening
"After the landed B757, cleared to land" or
"After the departing B757, cleared to land"
Both are correct. Both are a landing clearance and hence we DO us the word "cleared".
Of course these are a completely different kettle of fish to
"Land After"
Never failed an LCE check using this, probably never will!
Have a nice evening
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Sorry chaps. Must be special Heathrow magic. I'll get back in my box....
But for anybody getting one of these at airfields other than London Central my post still applies
But for anybody getting one of these at airfields other than London Central my post still applies
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And just to clear up Gonzo's phraseology (they don't do it much at Heathrow so forgive him!)
Lesson over. All get reading before your LCE!!!
......
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OK, point taken........
Whilst I accept that I have not the foggiest what you chaps and chappesses get up to down the road I would be grateful if somebody could answer the following whilst I wait for my late Tesco delivery!
I know there is the bit in the part 1 that broadly says you don't have to do what this book says but be prepared to be hung out to dry if you don't. So, where in the good book does it make the slightest reference to this after the landed cleared to land stuff? There is a bit about when approved by the authority with regard to after the departing cleared to land and there is specific reference to land after but I am at a loss to find the other. CAP 413 mentions no phraseology for it (although neither does it for after the departing).
Just curious and would be interested to know.
I am pleased to report that I still learn something new every day (except to stop trying to be a smart arse).
Cheers
Whilst I accept that I have not the foggiest what you chaps and chappesses get up to down the road I would be grateful if somebody could answer the following whilst I wait for my late Tesco delivery!
I know there is the bit in the part 1 that broadly says you don't have to do what this book says but be prepared to be hung out to dry if you don't. So, where in the good book does it make the slightest reference to this after the landed cleared to land stuff? There is a bit about when approved by the authority with regard to after the departing cleared to land and there is specific reference to land after but I am at a loss to find the other. CAP 413 mentions no phraseology for it (although neither does it for after the departing).
Just curious and would be interested to know.
I am pleased to report that I still learn something new every day (except to stop trying to be a smart arse).
Cheers
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Instead of reading all this claptrap from Heathrow 'LCEs' read about the 'special Heathrow Magic' yourselves in GEN 3-3-6:
http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/pubs/aip/pdf/gen/10303.PDF
http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/pubs/aip/pdf/gen/10303.PDF
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booked from 8 to 10. turned up at 10.25 and half of it was out of stock anyway....I don't do substitutions as they always send crap I didn't want, which of course is why I didn't order it in the first place!!!!!!!!!
