QNH 1000 - digit by digit or 'wun tousand'?
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Another area where there is NO international standardisation!
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yeah i agree, i have never personally heard 1-0-0-0, nor the squawk 7-0-0-0 which is CAP 413 phraseology.
If its not causing a problem or confusion, which it doesnt appear to, i havent got an issue.
Interesting to know though..
If its not causing a problem or confusion, which it doesnt appear to, i havent got an issue.
Interesting to know though..
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CAP 413 Radiotelephony Manual
Chapter 2 Page 4
1.4 Transmission of Numbers
1.4.2
b) All numbers used in the transmission of altitude, height, cloud height, visibility and runway visual range information which contain whole hundreds and whole thousands shall be transmitted by pronouncing each digit in the number of hundreds or thousands followed by the word HUNDRED or TOUSAND as appropriate. Combinations of thousands and whole hundreds shall be transmitted by pronouncing each digit in the number of thousands followed by the word THOUSAND and the number of hundreds followed by the word HUNDRED;
Chapter 2 Page 4
1.4 Transmission of Numbers
1.4.2
b) All numbers used in the transmission of altitude, height, cloud height, visibility and runway visual range information which contain whole hundreds and whole thousands shall be transmitted by pronouncing each digit in the number of hundreds or thousands followed by the word HUNDRED or TOUSAND as appropriate. Combinations of thousands and whole hundreds shall be transmitted by pronouncing each digit in the number of thousands followed by the word THOUSAND and the number of hundreds followed by the word HUNDRED;
Worrying that SRG get it wrong unless Jon5 has misquoted (and i doubt Jon5 has).
Further to this from the current edition of the UK MATS pt1
Appendix E:
3.4.3 All numbers used in the transmission of altitude, height, cloud height, visibility and runway visual range (RVR) information, which contain whole hundreds and whole thousands, shall be transmitted by pronouncing each digit in the number of hundreds or thousands followed by the word 'Hundred' or 'Tousand' as appropriate.
Combinations of thousands and whole hundreds shall be transmitted by pronouncing each digit in the number of thousands followed by the word 'Tousand' followed by the number of hundreds followed by the word 'Hundred';
3.4.3 All numbers used in the transmission of altitude, height, cloud height, visibility and runway visual range (RVR) information, which contain whole hundreds and whole thousands, shall be transmitted by pronouncing each digit in the number of hundreds or thousands followed by the word 'Hundred' or 'Tousand' as appropriate.
Combinations of thousands and whole hundreds shall be transmitted by pronouncing each digit in the number of thousands followed by the word 'Tousand' followed by the number of hundreds followed by the word 'Hundred';
Last edited by tired-flyboy; 24th Jul 2007 at 07:29.
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QATAR ATC - to make sure that the heading is not confused with a FL - it is possible to hear heading 160 and think FL160 - especially in airspace where one particular set of levels and headings are commonly used. So this piece of phraseology was introduced.
louby
louby
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I don't know who writes CAP 413, whether it is a committee of Health and Safety individuals, or oen eprson, but there are a few odd things about it. Many of these get changed at the next edition, so for about 5 years one would get "shot" for saying something a particular way, and then suddenly what you have been saying all along is the right way after all!
Actually, does anyone know who (specifically) does write CAP 413, as I'd like to discuss something with him/her. (Could phone the CAA, but I am sure someone here knows.)
Actually, does anyone know who (specifically) does write CAP 413, as I'd like to discuss something with him/her. (Could phone the CAA, but I am sure someone here knows.)
Riverboat
Email to [email protected] but don't blame the addressee. It's done by committee but he is the co-ordinator, has only recently taken on the task and has a list of potential changes a yard (metre?) long.
Spookily, QNH 1000 thingies yesterday morning. Passed by YT as "QNH One Thousand millibars" because I consider the "standard" phrase to be potentially hazardous. All Brit pilots and one or two non-Brits read back as passed, one non-Brit read back as "one zero zero zero" - not a huge sample but interesting.
Email to [email protected] but don't blame the addressee. It's done by committee but he is the co-ordinator, has only recently taken on the task and has a list of potential changes a yard (metre?) long.
Spookily, QNH 1000 thingies yesterday morning. Passed by YT as "QNH One Thousand millibars" because I consider the "standard" phrase to be potentially hazardous. All Brit pilots and one or two non-Brits read back as passed, one non-Brit read back as "one zero zero zero" - not a huge sample but interesting.
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Many moons ago, around Christmas time, I was controlling a military helicopter doing a present drop around local hospitals and children's homes using the callsign "Santa 1"
So, on this ocassion, I had delight in informing him the QFE was "One Ho Ho Ho" - at all other times I'd use "One Thousand millibars" for clarity
So, on this ocassion, I had delight in informing him the QFE was "One Ho Ho Ho" - at all other times I'd use "One Thousand millibars" for clarity
I note that this crazy One Zero Zero Zero has spread to the Volmet too!
This is by my reckoning an increase from 3 to 7 syllables! Almost as annoying as the variability of the wind on Volmet - who the hell cares about the wind direction variability when the speed is 2 kts or evem 10kts? This all eats up valuable time!
This is by my reckoning an increase from 3 to 7 syllables! Almost as annoying as the variability of the wind on Volmet - who the hell cares about the wind direction variability when the speed is 2 kts or evem 10kts? This all eats up valuable time!
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Given CAP413 has been updated, i had a read through it and still couldn't find anything to make this topics question legitimate. Also, I take it the word degrees is only used when the bearing ends with a zero (thats what i understood from the amended CAP413).
Anyone got any answer for the QNH/QFE one tousand or one zero zero zero issue??????
What would be the correct answer in the written R/T exam do you think?
Thanks
Raptor
Anyone got any answer for the QNH/QFE one tousand or one zero zero zero issue??????
What would be the correct answer in the written R/T exam do you think?
Thanks
Raptor
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one was taught One Zero Zero Zero by Nats instructors at Hurn
one was taught One Thousand by Nats OJTIs at unit
Practically speaking, I think One Thousand gives less room for error, as a series of Zeros could be easily confused with something else.
one was taught One Thousand by Nats OJTIs at unit
Practically speaking, I think One Thousand gives less room for error, as a series of Zeros could be easily confused with something else.
For all of you doing this DON'T it sounds just like
"Roger descend TO FIFE ZERO ZERO FEET"
And I don't want you at 500ft you're not MAHAN Air!!
"Roger descend TO FIFE ZERO ZERO FEET"
And I don't want you at 500ft you're not MAHAN Air!!
For goodness' sake, this is getting tedious...
To summarise...
CAP413 (UK RTF Manual) specifies:
When transmitting messages containing aircraft callsigns, altimeter settings, flight
levels (with the exception of FL 100, 200, 300 etc. which are expressed as ‘Flight
Level (number) HUN DRED’), headings, wind speeds/directions, pressure settings,
transponder codes and frequencies, each digit shall be transmitted separately.
The ICAO RTF Manual not only specifies the same but gives specific examples of 1000 hpa and 1010 hpa.
The UK used to specify "one thousand" for that specific value, but then fell in line with ICAO several years ago.
Therefore, one was taught correctly at the college and one or two unit OJTIs were not up to speed. The CAA have certainly been quite emphatic on this point to the training colleges.
The procedure does seem somewhat illogical and possibly potentially hazardous, I would be the first to say. If you feel strongly - or if there is a mismatch with unit OJTIs - why not direct the effort to CAA, either directly or through CHIRP? Do something about it!
2 s
Anyone got any answer for the QNH/QFE one tousand or one zero zero zero issue??????
What would be the correct answer in the written R/T exam do you think?
What would be the correct answer in the written R/T exam do you think?
To summarise...
CAP413 (UK RTF Manual) specifies:
When transmitting messages containing aircraft callsigns, altimeter settings, flight
levels (with the exception of FL 100, 200, 300 etc. which are expressed as ‘Flight
Level (number) HUN DRED’), headings, wind speeds/directions, pressure settings,
transponder codes and frequencies, each digit shall be transmitted separately.
The ICAO RTF Manual not only specifies the same but gives specific examples of 1000 hpa and 1010 hpa.
The UK used to specify "one thousand" for that specific value, but then fell in line with ICAO several years ago.
one was taught One Zero Zero Zero by Nats instructors at Hurn
one was taught One Thousand by Nats OJTIs at unit
one was taught One Thousand by Nats OJTIs at unit
Therefore, one was taught correctly at the college and one or two unit OJTIs were not up to speed. The CAA have certainly been quite emphatic on this point to the training colleges.
The procedure does seem somewhat illogical and possibly potentially hazardous, I would be the first to say. If you feel strongly - or if there is a mismatch with unit OJTIs - why not direct the effort to CAA, either directly or through CHIRP? Do something about it!
2 s
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The procedure does seem somewhat illogical and possibly potentially hazardous, I would be the first to say. If you feel strongly - or if there is a mismatch with unit OJTIs - why not direct the effort to CAA, either directly or through CHIRP? Do something about it!
In this case, the One Thousand works and appears to be safe, so I am more than happy with the way I was taught by my live OJTIs rather than Hurn.
If the way I was taught is not conforming with the CAP, then I believe it's the LCEs or Training Managers' job to raise the issue, not mine.
At Hurn we used one zero zero zero, but at the college you don't experience wrong readbacks (unless they are deliberate) because the virtual pilots read the QNH off the met screen, rather than reding back the R/T in most cases.
And yes you are right, it's getting tedious. But most pprune threads become like that
If the way I was taught is not conforming with the CAP, then I believe it's the LCEs or Training Managers' job to raise the issue, not mine.
The old Nuremburg Defence ploy, eh?
2 s