Manchester AAVA 'ban'.
the movements for MACC and Scottish combined are less than that of LTCC...
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Doesn't Scoacc do the same?
the movements for MACC and Scottish combined are less than that of LTCC...
Is that enough petrol ....
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Actually having just had a browse through the document, i can't see anywhere that TC and AC are split. MACC is in at 2 and London AC at 12-ScOACC is no 27.
I would suggest that these positions may have changes a bit since the study was done. MACC traffic figures are consistently down this year due to the reduction in BA express flights and the subsequent buy out by Flybe.
The real difficulty will be when MACC moves north. Are you suggesting that the 2 units should maybe be graded differently?? And what happens when the airspace is simplified and there fore the complexity goes down-happy to take a pay cut then maybe??
I understand the frustrations at MACC and I for one would not wish to move from that area to Ayr and the surrounding areas and that is no insult to the many that are already there.
Not sure TC has twice the staff of MACC and ScOACC put together-and even if it has what has that got to do with complexity of the task?
I assume Ali is talking about the likes of Luton and Thames when he talks about the figures not adding up. Well the staff could always ask management and the unions to investigate different bands for different sectors/groups/validations within a unit but frankly i think that would open up a nest of vipers that none of would like.
And didn't MACCs biggest nutter get a job at LACC as a Traffic Manager?
I would suggest that these positions may have changes a bit since the study was done. MACC traffic figures are consistently down this year due to the reduction in BA express flights and the subsequent buy out by Flybe.
The real difficulty will be when MACC moves north. Are you suggesting that the 2 units should maybe be graded differently?? And what happens when the airspace is simplified and there fore the complexity goes down-happy to take a pay cut then maybe??
I understand the frustrations at MACC and I for one would not wish to move from that area to Ayr and the surrounding areas and that is no insult to the many that are already there.
Not sure TC has twice the staff of MACC and ScOACC put together-and even if it has what has that got to do with complexity of the task?
I assume Ali is talking about the likes of Luton and Thames when he talks about the figures not adding up. Well the staff could always ask management and the unions to investigate different bands for different sectors/groups/validations within a unit but frankly i think that would open up a nest of vipers that none of would like.
And didn't MACCs biggest nutter get a job at LACC as a Traffic Manager?
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Manc 'boy' - nail - firmly - head - hit.
I wouldn't even attempt it. You 'boys' at LACC are so much more gifted than us. perhaps if we had all worked harder at the college and got better marks we would have been given the chance to be the elite that is a LACC ATCO.
Perhaps in my next life I will be. Until then its back to our quiet little backwater rural sectors with 3 planes a day and the odd phone call to make.
Ok, lets see him do the west end which is from low level to high level, lets see him work 65 a/c an hour on the DTY sector and what about the apparent complexities with the LAKES sector at the moment.
Perhaps in my next life I will be.
Until then its back to our quiet little backwater rural sectors with 3 planes a day and the odd phone call to make.
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I'm not saying you couldn't do it or that LACC controllers are elite.
I was merely responding to your comment that some units don't deserve to be band 5 like others.
Plus what's working harder at the college got anything to do with it?
Most trainees come to LACC anyway so I don't know what you are on about!
I was merely responding to your comment that some units don't deserve to be band 5 like others.
Plus what's working harder at the college got anything to do with it?
Most trainees come to LACC anyway so I don't know what you are on about!
Disappointed
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Mancboy :
Surely all of us, or pretty much, could do that after appropriate training. Or are you implying that only those at LACC are capable of such world-beating feats?
You might not have meant it to mate, but your statement there sounds exactly like the sort of "we're better than you" rubbish that frankly is more suited to a playground than a professional person with a highly responsible job.
And again, you might not have meant it to, but in saying it, you're basically totally dismissing the work undertaken at other units - implying it is somehow so much easier and quieter, hence Ali Bongo's rather excellent sarcasm
It seems to me, if you don't mind me saying, that you have allowed your bad experiences in the company and the disappointment you felt and perhaps feel, cloud your view somewhat on the bigger picture, so to speak.
You have transferred the anger and resentment you felt then onto everyone else and don't seem to be capable or perhaps willing to afford anyone else in the company any sort of support or credit for the job they do or the situations they find themselves in. As you say yourself :
That saddens me a little. And it's a good job that everyone who has had an unfavorable work-based experience with NATS doesn't feel the same - otherwise we'd all be cutting each other up in the car parks and not flushing after we've visited the traps, deliberately to annoy. Um, hang on...
Anyway, this all makes you sound a little selfish, egotistical, wholly narrow minded and frankly, bitter.
Which I'm sure you're not at all mate...
And it makes me sound like a ten a penny psychologist. Knew the qualification would come in handy one day though
No unit "deserves" to be band 5 or indeed any band in my view - as I said earlier. We're all doing a variation of the same job, using the same skills, after the same training - as you rightly say yourself.
So come now mate, don't give in to management's divide and rule tactics and accept the banding issue as some sort of rubber seal that your job is somehow more important than everyone else's. Think for yourself. And give your colleagues up and down the country a little tiny bit of credit once in a while....
Ok, lets see him do the west end which is from low level to high level, lets see him work 65 a/c an hour on the DTY sector and what about the apparent complexities with the LAKES sector at the moment.
You might not have meant it to mate, but your statement there sounds exactly like the sort of "we're better than you" rubbish that frankly is more suited to a playground than a professional person with a highly responsible job.
And again, you might not have meant it to, but in saying it, you're basically totally dismissing the work undertaken at other units - implying it is somehow so much easier and quieter, hence Ali Bongo's rather excellent sarcasm
It seems to me, if you don't mind me saying, that you have allowed your bad experiences in the company and the disappointment you felt and perhaps feel, cloud your view somewhat on the bigger picture, so to speak.
You have transferred the anger and resentment you felt then onto everyone else and don't seem to be capable or perhaps willing to afford anyone else in the company any sort of support or credit for the job they do or the situations they find themselves in. As you say yourself :
I can have some sympathy but why should I when i got shafted
Anyway, this all makes you sound a little selfish, egotistical, wholly narrow minded and frankly, bitter.
Which I'm sure you're not at all mate...
And it makes me sound like a ten a penny psychologist. Knew the qualification would come in handy one day though
No unit "deserves" to be band 5 or indeed any band in my view - as I said earlier. We're all doing a variation of the same job, using the same skills, after the same training - as you rightly say yourself.
So come now mate, don't give in to management's divide and rule tactics and accept the banding issue as some sort of rubber seal that your job is somehow more important than everyone else's. Think for yourself. And give your colleagues up and down the country a little tiny bit of credit once in a while....
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well how about we make sure everyone gets paid the same.
All centres on the same money, and all atco's at the centre as well including the newly validated ones. We all do the same job after all! that seems to be what you are all saying.
I think we'd all have to prepare for a massive pay cut and then watch the transfer requests come piling in. Because i tell you i'm not working this hard for less money, when others will be getting an easier ride!
All centres on the same money, and all atco's at the centre as well including the newly validated ones. We all do the same job after all! that seems to be what you are all saying.
I think we'd all have to prepare for a massive pay cut and then watch the transfer requests come piling in. Because i tell you i'm not working this hard for less money, when others will be getting an easier ride!
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Just how much low level stuff do the atcgods on the West end get then? The odd Brize outbound climbing to FL80 or something? Hardly the same as constant stream of a/c straight of the deck?
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If the Manchester people feel hard done by with the banding system take a look at Cardiff who perform a large Area function and are paid only as Band 2, they also sort out a lot of crap for the West End. Many in NATS just imagine it is a small airport they do not realise the large amount of airspace they have delegated to them from LACC. As I understood it was well up on the complexity scale.
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ppdude there are currently calls from most lks atcos to take airspace back from macc, like bits of s29 and iom. The interaction between the two units just isn't working and making things more complicated and generally unsafer.
How about we all stop squabbling and try to get the job we do right!
How about we all stop squabbling and try to get the job we do right!
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ppude.
There is a difference between delegated airspace and that which "belongs" to a unit. My understanding is that EGFF do the task around the Severn area during the day in airspace delegated to them and LACC take back that task at night-I know I will quickly find out if this is not the case!
At MACC the airspace is dedicated to that unit and therefore not delegated airspace. Just to give you an idea LACC carries out controlling in airspace delegated from many other agencies, Maastricht and Amsterdam being but two of them with no dispensations.
This is not a one way street, in terms of LACC delegating airspace, as many seem to think and indeed most of the changes do benefit the operators with regards to delays but there are, by all accounts, still some major interface issues around the LKS airspace and S29.
There is a difference between delegated airspace and that which "belongs" to a unit. My understanding is that EGFF do the task around the Severn area during the day in airspace delegated to them and LACC take back that task at night-I know I will quickly find out if this is not the case!
At MACC the airspace is dedicated to that unit and therefore not delegated airspace. Just to give you an idea LACC carries out controlling in airspace delegated from many other agencies, Maastricht and Amsterdam being but two of them with no dispensations.
This is not a one way street, in terms of LACC delegating airspace, as many seem to think and indeed most of the changes do benefit the operators with regards to delays but there are, by all accounts, still some major interface issues around the LKS airspace and S29.
Last edited by 250 kts; 22nd Jul 2007 at 20:39.
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Worrying thing for the MACC ATCOs is that, taking last week as an example, delays were only up by 260 minutes compared to the same week last year against traffic that was 1% down on the same week.
Management at the unit must really be wondering whether it is worth continuing to get AAVAs in at all if they can get away with such small increases in delay for nothing.
Management at the unit must really be wondering whether it is worth continuing to get AAVAs in at all if they can get away with such small increases in delay for nothing.
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250 Kts. For someone who has all the facts ( or thinks they do) the "wondering" management are doing nothing but masking the cracks in this depleted unit by providing a front line service and therefore neglecting their everyday tasks. This, in addition to large weather regulations and excellent staff attendance is a great cover, but can't continue. Rome wasn't built in a day.
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I merely got the figure from the ones that are sent out daily into the public domain.
I don't for one minute deny that MACC is short of staff just as are the rest of the area units. I just think that if there is a "ban" then the staff shifting more than TSFs or whatever they are called nowadays is an own goal. Surely they should be highlighting at every opportunity the ineptitude of the local management in getting numbers up to strength.
Just out of interest how many is the unit short by?
I don't for one minute deny that MACC is short of staff just as are the rest of the area units. I just think that if there is a "ban" then the staff shifting more than TSFs or whatever they are called nowadays is an own goal. Surely they should be highlighting at every opportunity the ineptitude of the local management in getting numbers up to strength.
Just out of interest how many is the unit short by?