Manchester AAVA 'ban'.
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Mega25 - Even though I work at MACC and the ranking results "suit" me, I couldn't agree more. And it'll be interesting to see what the Banding challenge will bring...if anything.
Manc - "1.5 on 30 mins off, so what do we do at the other units then?" .....No idea. I've only commented on the situation at MACC in response to postings/questions on what is (generally) a thread about MACC. Certainly never my intention to write anything suggesting MACC is better or worse off than any other unit when it comes to time plugged in.
Interesting what you say about MAAS and it being "definitely worse than MACC".....not sure how long you spent drawing your conclusions at the various units and what criteria you base them on....just like I don't know how Eurocontrol came to theirs. As Mega25 has hinted at, due to the nature of ATC, I suspect you could ask 5 different bodies to rank a selection of sectors and get at least 3 different answers. You want to talk about the vagueries of compiling ranking tables?....discuss the Banding Model but I really, really, really don't want to go there.
The Eurocontrol report is just one item that I've commented on when trying to offer the most realistic picture, from my experience, of the goings-on at MACC....why?....well to try and counter what are often very skewed and ill informed rumours and postings about the unit. I'II comment on MACC but am not getting involved in any "them and us" discussions...they smack of self-pity, are pointless and achieve nowt.
Manc - "1.5 on 30 mins off, so what do we do at the other units then?" .....No idea. I've only commented on the situation at MACC in response to postings/questions on what is (generally) a thread about MACC. Certainly never my intention to write anything suggesting MACC is better or worse off than any other unit when it comes to time plugged in.
Interesting what you say about MAAS and it being "definitely worse than MACC".....not sure how long you spent drawing your conclusions at the various units and what criteria you base them on....just like I don't know how Eurocontrol came to theirs. As Mega25 has hinted at, due to the nature of ATC, I suspect you could ask 5 different bodies to rank a selection of sectors and get at least 3 different answers. You want to talk about the vagueries of compiling ranking tables?....discuss the Banding Model but I really, really, really don't want to go there.
The Eurocontrol report is just one item that I've commented on when trying to offer the most realistic picture, from my experience, of the goings-on at MACC....why?....well to try and counter what are often very skewed and ill informed rumours and postings about the unit. I'II comment on MACC but am not getting involved in any "them and us" discussions...they smack of self-pity, are pointless and achieve nowt.
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I just can't understand why, if the the airspace is so full and complicated at MACC the only regulations they ever have on for capacity is Sector 29 in the early morning. Surely if it is as bad as it is made out to be there would be regulations regularly in place for capacity.
Disappointed
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I find this constant competitive begrudgement, if there is such a word, between units a bit tiresome and sad to be honest. It's paints us all in a bad light, regardless of unit.
We're supposed to be professionals, not willy-waving playground habitants.
The document implies that at the time of the data sample MACC STAFA TRENT was the fifth most complex piece of airspace in Europe based on the criteria used in it's production. Those are facts and for all of the huffing and puffing of those dahn sarf, those facts in that particular report, created using whichever methodology it's compilers applied, will remain.
Whether those facts remain applicable now is another matter and, unless some sort of further study is undertaken, I suspect we'll all be victim to the "my job is more difficult than yours" syndrome that affects many professions, not just our slice of ego-driven, blip shifting madness.
I do find the sudden keenness of those down south to accept one set of statistics that suit their argument whilst ignoring another equally valid set, most amusing though, nice one!
I think it's worth us all remembering the old "lies, damned lies and statistics" cliché when looking at any set of figures on either side of the argument.
Sometimes it seems to a lot of us at MACC and elsewhere that some of our southern colleagues are rather too keen to downplay and belittle the work undertaken by other units in the country, at every available opportunity, and quite publicly.
And I guess sometimes those of us at MACC repeat the old "fifth most complex" thing rather like an obsessive mantra at times. I'm as guilty as most, though in fairness, I do try to limit my comments specifically to matters at MACC and certainly have never found myself discussing how long my LACC colleagues spend on sector, over my break time Kit Kat.
If you consider the position we at MACC find ourselves in at the moment though, fairly and reasonably, I'm sure you'll agree we are receiving a rather "bum" deal in some quarters, at the moment, oui? So you can hardly blame us for using authoritative data compiled by a powerful body like Eurocontrol as persuasive leverage?
What I'm basically trying to say is stop begrudging your colleagues, doing the same job as you, for the same company, with the same hopes and ideals, a fair treatment and some credit for the task they perform
One day in the future of this company of ours, we might need to stand together and actually support each other for once, lest we all find ourselves well and truly shafted......it'd be nice to think we could do it.
We're supposed to be professionals, not willy-waving playground habitants.
The document implies that at the time of the data sample MACC STAFA TRENT was the fifth most complex piece of airspace in Europe based on the criteria used in it's production. Those are facts and for all of the huffing and puffing of those dahn sarf, those facts in that particular report, created using whichever methodology it's compilers applied, will remain.
Whether those facts remain applicable now is another matter and, unless some sort of further study is undertaken, I suspect we'll all be victim to the "my job is more difficult than yours" syndrome that affects many professions, not just our slice of ego-driven, blip shifting madness.
I do find the sudden keenness of those down south to accept one set of statistics that suit their argument whilst ignoring another equally valid set, most amusing though, nice one!
I think it's worth us all remembering the old "lies, damned lies and statistics" cliché when looking at any set of figures on either side of the argument.
Sometimes it seems to a lot of us at MACC and elsewhere that some of our southern colleagues are rather too keen to downplay and belittle the work undertaken by other units in the country, at every available opportunity, and quite publicly.
And I guess sometimes those of us at MACC repeat the old "fifth most complex" thing rather like an obsessive mantra at times. I'm as guilty as most, though in fairness, I do try to limit my comments specifically to matters at MACC and certainly have never found myself discussing how long my LACC colleagues spend on sector, over my break time Kit Kat.
If you consider the position we at MACC find ourselves in at the moment though, fairly and reasonably, I'm sure you'll agree we are receiving a rather "bum" deal in some quarters, at the moment, oui? So you can hardly blame us for using authoritative data compiled by a powerful body like Eurocontrol as persuasive leverage?
What I'm basically trying to say is stop begrudging your colleagues, doing the same job as you, for the same company, with the same hopes and ideals, a fair treatment and some credit for the task they perform
One day in the future of this company of ours, we might need to stand together and actually support each other for once, lest we all find ourselves well and truly shafted......it'd be nice to think we could do it.
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Good post Ceannairceach,
However it was the OP who suggested the AAVA "ban" could be linked to banding.
I do hope this is not the case. If there really is a "ban" then this month will be interesting to see as we should see the staffing delays rise considerably. If they don't then I suspect there will be some difficult questions asked about why the use of AAVAs has been so high.
However it was the OP who suggested the AAVA "ban" could be linked to banding.
I do hope this is not the case. If there really is a "ban" then this month will be interesting to see as we should see the staffing delays rise considerably. If they don't then I suspect there will be some difficult questions asked about why the use of AAVAs has been so high.
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I don't begrudge my colleagues at MACC anything, in fact I have quite a few friends there anyway.
I was merely pointing out the fact that your mate Mahaba was spouting on about this document as if it had just been made when in fact it is 4 years out of date. Looking at the daily figures on it for LACC it shows that during the busy period of data we were handling roughly 5,000 movements a day whereas now it is regularly over 6,000 every day.
Plus, where does it mention STAFA/TRENT in the report? Having read through it it only refers to MACC ACC.
You can't dispute the fact that MACC weekly traffic is regularly minus whereas everywhere else is positive, as has been preiously stated.
I was merely pointing out the fact that your mate Mahaba was spouting on about this document as if it had just been made when in fact it is 4 years out of date. Looking at the daily figures on it for LACC it shows that during the busy period of data we were handling roughly 5,000 movements a day whereas now it is regularly over 6,000 every day.
Plus, where does it mention STAFA/TRENT in the report? Having read through it it only refers to MACC ACC.
You can't dispute the fact that MACC weekly traffic is regularly minus whereas everywhere else is positive, as has been preiously stated.
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in fact it is 4 years out of date
At the end of the day the whole banding thing was a swindle carried out by Prospect. They should be ashamed of themselves.
Disappointed
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I understand the points you're making MancBoy, really I do. Fair play to you 
However, are you saying that because our weekly traffic figures are regularly in the decline we should basically accept the other factors mentioned briefly by the OP in the first post including the severe staff shortages we have which never seem to be dealt with, and being shafted, in one way or another, to a greater or lesser degree, over the move to NPC?
And even if you don't agree we're being shafted over the NPC thing, you have to admit that we're not exactly being listened to, and nothing is being done to counter the awful morale which gets worse and worse as time goes on.
So yes, whilst the banding issue has diverted the topic somewhat, and sadly so, that doesn't mean the other, non-banding issues mentioned by the OP in his or her first post are any less relevant to those of us at MACC. So perhaps we could leave the detrimental cross-unit arguing behind and focus on the other issues?
However, are you saying that because our weekly traffic figures are regularly in the decline we should basically accept the other factors mentioned briefly by the OP in the first post including the severe staff shortages we have which never seem to be dealt with, and being shafted, in one way or another, to a greater or lesser degree, over the move to NPC?
And even if you don't agree we're being shafted over the NPC thing, you have to admit that we're not exactly being listened to, and nothing is being done to counter the awful morale which gets worse and worse as time goes on.
So yes, whilst the banding issue has diverted the topic somewhat, and sadly so, that doesn't mean the other, non-banding issues mentioned by the OP in his or her first post are any less relevant to those of us at MACC. So perhaps we could leave the detrimental cross-unit arguing behind and focus on the other issues?
More than just an ATCO
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The Eurocontrol doc. was prepared using information provided by the ANSPs, (P13 of the doc) so any inaccuracy comes from your own unit.
Mancboy, did you previously work at MUAC?
Mancboy, did you previously work at MUAC?
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I dont condone any inter-unit arguing about who's busier etc, but wasn't it obvious when we voted in favour of the AAVA agreement that we were kissing goodbye to the realistic chance of ever being staffed properly at the centres?
And what is different to MACC relocating to TC's relocation? Other than people dont want to move, which is hard to argue when we are mobile grades?
And what is different to MACC relocating to TC's relocation? Other than people dont want to move, which is hard to argue when we are mobile grades?
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I didn't even get as far as the figures and charts on that report but i did notice how they assess complexity - "the indicators do not focus on actual interactions but on potential interactions between flows of aircraft."
If it's anything like our tlpd charts complexity indicator....
..... low/slow aircraft seem to have a high rating (fair enough if the potential is there to get in the way) yet a LTMA inbound earns a rating of something like .99 - the aircraft which frequently get huge dogleg turns and numerous speeds for streaming. I know which I work harder with - mind you, that might be my controlling!!
On the AAVA issues, all this inter-unit bickering surely plays into managements hands as they periodically decide who to target bungs at - £750 anyone? If having an unofficial veto at MACC is what's needed then well done and good luck to you all. I'm no innocent and have accepted my fair share of aava's but i did chuckle not so long back when i was offered a night shift aava!! (I thought aava's were 8hrs?!)
WW
If it's anything like our tlpd charts complexity indicator....
..... low/slow aircraft seem to have a high rating (fair enough if the potential is there to get in the way) yet a LTMA inbound earns a rating of something like .99 - the aircraft which frequently get huge dogleg turns and numerous speeds for streaming. I know which I work harder with - mind you, that might be my controlling!! On the AAVA issues, all this inter-unit bickering surely plays into managements hands as they periodically decide who to target bungs at - £750 anyone? If having an unofficial veto at MACC is what's needed then well done and good luck to you all. I'm no innocent and have accepted my fair share of aava's but i did chuckle not so long back when i was offered a night shift aava!! (I thought aava's were 8hrs?!)
WW
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Ceannairceach, I totally feel that you guys are being shafted up there with regards to staffing so why do people keep agreeing to AAVA's then?
One day will not make much difference, a whole month would be better!
I
wish things wouldn't degenarate into banding issues but if it keeps being brought up then expect it to get replies, positive or negative.
Explain to the greater public why you are being shafted over the move to NPC? apart from being moved within your mobile grade.
One day will not make much difference, a whole month would be better!
I
wish things wouldn't degenarate into banding issues but if it keeps being brought up then expect it to get replies, positive or negative.
Explain to the greater public why you are being shafted over the move to NPC? apart from being moved within your mobile grade.
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What's the difference between the MACC and TC relocation? Well here's at least some part of the answer...and I want to stress that it's a straight answer to the question and is in no way intended to contribute to a them and us discussion.....
I in no way belittle the problems face/d by AC and TC employees and their move to the south coast, but there are differences which mean some at MACC will be facing additional issues.
You want to commute from the M4 corridor to LACC on a daily basis then I know those who've done the reverse trip (and not just ROVI's and part timers)......I wouldn't envy anyone doing it but it's do-able....it's definitely happened in the past and I'm guessing NATS haven't somehow outlawed it? Commuting from Manch to Prestwick on a daily basis is obviously a non starter due distance, which leaves the option of staying away from home for 6/7 days (for those with wife and kids that'll go down well) or going part time (if NATS will let you) with the associated cut in pay. Either option a significant change in lifestyle/conditions.
Education system completely different in Scotland. Supposed to be better than the English system so if your kids are not yet of school age, reap the benefits. However, if your kids are older and already in the English system (and the majority of them are), the transition is not likely to be seamless.
Empoyment for the spouse....again commuting out of the question so there is real potantial for one wage coming in to the household being lost. And again the different education system causes an issue...at least three guys at MACC have partners who are teachers....their qualifications are not recognised in Scotland meaning at the very least, a period of conversion training.
And a few other more intangible things like the way the house buying process works etc.
So you want the differences...that's some of them.
Getting back a bit more on topic, I don't think it's an AAVA "ban" as such....more some (not all) people deciding that after the last few weeks of summer traffic, low staff numbers, lots of Wx, etc, their four days off, for the next few weeks (or as long as they see fit), will be exactly that....days off. AAVA's still being offered and a selection of people still doing them.
I in no way belittle the problems face/d by AC and TC employees and their move to the south coast, but there are differences which mean some at MACC will be facing additional issues.
You want to commute from the M4 corridor to LACC on a daily basis then I know those who've done the reverse trip (and not just ROVI's and part timers)......I wouldn't envy anyone doing it but it's do-able....it's definitely happened in the past and I'm guessing NATS haven't somehow outlawed it? Commuting from Manch to Prestwick on a daily basis is obviously a non starter due distance, which leaves the option of staying away from home for 6/7 days (for those with wife and kids that'll go down well) or going part time (if NATS will let you) with the associated cut in pay. Either option a significant change in lifestyle/conditions.
Education system completely different in Scotland. Supposed to be better than the English system so if your kids are not yet of school age, reap the benefits. However, if your kids are older and already in the English system (and the majority of them are), the transition is not likely to be seamless.
Empoyment for the spouse....again commuting out of the question so there is real potantial for one wage coming in to the household being lost. And again the different education system causes an issue...at least three guys at MACC have partners who are teachers....their qualifications are not recognised in Scotland meaning at the very least, a period of conversion training.
And a few other more intangible things like the way the house buying process works etc.
So you want the differences...that's some of them.
Getting back a bit more on topic, I don't think it's an AAVA "ban" as such....more some (not all) people deciding that after the last few weeks of summer traffic, low staff numbers, lots of Wx, etc, their four days off, for the next few weeks (or as long as they see fit), will be exactly that....days off. AAVA's still being offered and a selection of people still doing them.
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Trouble is NATS would fall apart........
Trouble is NATS would fall apart if it didnt run on "overtime". Record movements were set again last week at SCOACC, and this was done when they were understaffed! They coped, sending the message that if you work your proper hours for which you are paid handsomely, and some suit at the supervisors desk can juggle the staff whilst enjoying his BMW,BUPA membership, and BONUS, then more fool you for doing the
AAVA. Quite frankly it's sickening having to listen to Watch Sups actually pleading on the phone to staff to "come on in" . Obviously their bonus depends on recruiting AAVA's.
Stay at home on your days off and enjoy life, after all "Cash isn't King"......... or is it......
AAVA. Quite frankly it's sickening having to listen to Watch Sups actually pleading on the phone to staff to "come on in" . Obviously their bonus depends on recruiting AAVA's.
Stay at home on your days off and enjoy life, after all "Cash isn't King"......... or is it......
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Perhaps if enough of us wrote to the union we could get a extraordinary general meeting to debate the issue of AAVA's with a view to the union organising a vote to stop doing them and then have something to go to the "Working Together" table with an talk to the Red Barron about when the NATS attributable delays go through the roof!!
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Beaver liquor-a male colleague per chance? how sweet.
Voting for AAVA's-I think you'll find that regardless of what other units want; the lions share of the vote is with our southern colleagues so it's irrelevant.
TC to Swanick- If you're really convinced that a move from the south coast of England to the south coast of England is the same as a move from Manchester, England to Ayshire, Scotland- then I'd be very surprised if you ever got to validate your cute little name on anything that doesn't have a set of staples in the middle of it.
Why should management divide and conquer? We seem to be doing it for them.
Voting for AAVA's-I think you'll find that regardless of what other units want; the lions share of the vote is with our southern colleagues so it's irrelevant.
TC to Swanick- If you're really convinced that a move from the south coast of England to the south coast of England is the same as a move from Manchester, England to Ayshire, Scotland- then I'd be very surprised if you ever got to validate your cute little name on anything that doesn't have a set of staples in the middle of it.
Why should management divide and conquer? We seem to be doing it for them.
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Mahaba, I don't think you'll find anyone who believes the West Drayton to Swanwick move is the same as Manchester to Prestwick, but surely that's not the point, is it?
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Perhaps if enough of us wrote to the union we could get a extraordinary general meeting to debate the issue of AAVA's with a view to the union organising a vote to stop doing them and then have something to go to the "Working Together" table with an talk to the Red Barron about when the NATS attributable delays go through the roof!!
I think it'd be fair to say that they're pretty well subscribed now, my unit is. Therefore, the AAVA's that do get offered tend to be snapped up happily, as they don't come around too often, and the (small) amount of extra money is gratefully recieved. I think you'd be hard pushed to get everyone to agree to a ban......