ICAO Level 4 Grandfather Rights for ATCO's
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ICAO Level 4 Grandfather Rights for ATCO's
5 March 2008
Country with non mother tongue english speakers wants to apply grandfather rights for their controllers on the grounds that they can not comply with the ICAO dead line for level 4 ability in use of english.
thoughts please
Country with non mother tongue english speakers wants to apply grandfather rights for their controllers on the grounds that they can not comply with the ICAO dead line for level 4 ability in use of english.
thoughts please
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Then again surely meeting an acceptable level of English is a requirement for all Air Traffic Controllers new or old. It is a safety issue, not an issue of shafting people. If you can't speak English how on earth can you do your job up to an acceptable standard when having to communicate in English to International flights 
Just to clarify, I didn't read the first post as being due to admin problems or red tape, my reading of it was they have not been able to get the existing controllers up to a standard of English that meets the level 4 ICAO standard. If that is the case, as I said it is a safety issue and therefore they should not be working international traffic until they meet that standard.
Just to clarify, I didn't read the first post as being due to admin problems or red tape, my reading of it was they have not been able to get the existing controllers up to a standard of English that meets the level 4 ICAO standard. If that is the case, as I said it is a safety issue and therefore they should not be working international traffic until they meet that standard.
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Not acceptable.
The whole reason for bringing in a "language standard" is because there are perceived to be problems with some people's english, both understanding and pronounciation. What you're now proposing is to let those people who may have a problem slip through the net, because of how long they have been doing the job (and who could be part of the problem in the first place).
A slightly longer implementation date - yes. Grandfather rights - no!
The whole reason for bringing in a "language standard" is because there are perceived to be problems with some people's english, both understanding and pronounciation. What you're now proposing is to let those people who may have a problem slip through the net, because of how long they have been doing the job (and who could be part of the problem in the first place).
A slightly longer implementation date - yes. Grandfather rights - no!
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Nothing of a kind in Serbia. The requirement is well known for more then a year, so English lessons have been organised, by our association, for the last 5-6 months. Next week we shall have an official test ,organised by the agency, to give individual level of knowledge to all of us, with a valid ratings, in both APP and ACC Belgrade. The results will be used to point out the areas of improvement, for every individual involved, in order to achieve the required level. Hopefully, we'll be there (level 4+) on time.
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Being an pessimistic - optimist I reckon this is the tip of the iceberg for non compliance. Although ICAO have mandated these requirements well in advance, I think many organisations have just stuck their heads in the sand (?) and intend to carry on without worrying / complying with such an ICAO "recommendation". After all, what is the penalty ? Are they breaking an International law for example? I think not. Bit like ICAO SARPS etc. Some runways have lights - Europe - others dont Africa!!
Although many companies have jumped on the Aviation English $$$$ bandwagon and advertise a plethora of AE training solutions, I would doubt if many customers will rush out and buy a product before their neighbour. And there is no standard product & testing!!
After all ANSP's are mostly cost based for profit oprganistaions these days, and why would you spend large amounts of time, money, and effort to fix something which your country,s / company's culture doesnt perceive as broken in the first place?
I think 2008 will come and go and the status quo will remain pretty much the same. One difference may be that if there is an incident/ accident involving a culpable /preventable communication Eng Lang type error then the ANSP / carrier will be more liable ; as they have / are being warned of such a risk as I type !
As native english speakers we are of course b+oody lucky.
I admire and applaud anyone who can speak more than one language. And english is not the best for aviation as many know!!
What with the adoption of the Greenwhich meridian, English as the language of the skies and the world cup win in 66, the old country hasnt done too badly - even if it appears to be all downhill from here!!
Looking forward to the M25 in July - first time for the family in 10 years!!
DogGone
Although many companies have jumped on the Aviation English $$$$ bandwagon and advertise a plethora of AE training solutions, I would doubt if many customers will rush out and buy a product before their neighbour. And there is no standard product & testing!!
After all ANSP's are mostly cost based for profit oprganistaions these days, and why would you spend large amounts of time, money, and effort to fix something which your country,s / company's culture doesnt perceive as broken in the first place?
I think 2008 will come and go and the status quo will remain pretty much the same. One difference may be that if there is an incident/ accident involving a culpable /preventable communication Eng Lang type error then the ANSP / carrier will be more liable ; as they have / are being warned of such a risk as I type !
As native english speakers we are of course b+oody lucky.
I admire and applaud anyone who can speak more than one language. And english is not the best for aviation as many know!!
What with the adoption of the Greenwhich meridian, English as the language of the skies and the world cup win in 66, the old country hasnt done too badly - even if it appears to be all downhill from here!!
Looking forward to the M25 in July - first time for the family in 10 years!!
DogGone
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A guy working on the standardized tests with Eurocontrol spoke at the Norwegian union congress in march. He said that many countries in eastern europe that has a problem has attacked it early on, and implemented training etc.
....but some un-identified large-ish european countries of latin persuasion has refused to admit to a problem at all.
....but some un-identified large-ish european countries of latin persuasion has refused to admit to a problem at all.
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er....
I believe ICAO says even native English speakers are to be tested, at least once at the beginning and then if ICAO level 6 is not established then they comply with the retesting requirements.
Please confirm the UK CAA is checking native speakers.
So what are France and Germany doing...anybody know?
I believe ICAO says even native English speakers are to be tested, at least once at the beginning and then if ICAO level 6 is not established then they comply with the retesting requirements.
Please confirm the UK CAA is checking native speakers.
So what are France and Germany doing...anybody know?
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German pilots and controllers will be tested. The ATCOs performance is reviewed every year, and the language test will be part of it. I dont know any details, since the LBA is still working on the procedure and on the regulations.
They published a short description and some Q&A in May.
http://www.lba.de/cln_009/nn_57316/S...forderung.html
it's in german however....
Greetings
Saigor
They published a short description and some Q&A in May.
http://www.lba.de/cln_009/nn_57316/S...forderung.html
it's in german however....
Greetings
Saigor
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All Ozzie controllers are or have been checked. A group of checkies were trained to assess the standard. I've heard that there are a handful of controllers who may require further work to lift their pronounciation.
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Passenger 9 - "Please confirm the UK CAA is checking native speakers."
Indeed they are. CAA SRG required us to produce a 'Plan' for assessing all the ATCOs at the (UK) unit at which I work.
Operational english is assessed during simulator exercises and conversational english during the oral board at each ATCO's annual competency check.
The result is then notified to SRG on the ULE renewal form.
Assuming Level 6 is attained, then no further assessment is required.
All assessments to be completed by Feb 2008.
RC
Indeed they are. CAA SRG required us to produce a 'Plan' for assessing all the ATCOs at the (UK) unit at which I work.
Operational english is assessed during simulator exercises and conversational english during the oral board at each ATCO's annual competency check.
The result is then notified to SRG on the ULE renewal form.
Assuming Level 6 is attained, then no further assessment is required.
All assessments to be completed by Feb 2008.
RC
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German - French etc. etc.
..... if the English are checking native English speakers ...
... then what are the Germans, French etc. etc. doing about checking their native German and French speakers etc. to ensure thay also comply with the ICAO standard, which includes all languges used for aeronautical communication ?
By March 2008.
... then what are the Germans, French etc. etc. doing about checking their native German and French speakers etc. to ensure thay also comply with the ICAO standard, which includes all languges used for aeronautical communication ?
By March 2008.
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Grandfather rights for controllers and pilots in any country is a possibility at this point.
All ICAO member states have had years to prepare for March 2008 and some are doing better than others.
We had a representative of a certain country stand up at an ICAO conference a few weeks ago claiming that they had received no information at all about these regulations until six months ago. (That's where the bureaucracy headache comes in for some states.)
However, I will stress that the ICAO regulations although strict will not be policed with a very heavy hand come the deadline and I believe that there will be a limited grace period in the twelve months after the deadline passes.
At the moment, there are some countries, like China, who are in the process of training up everyone. I have colleagues over there who are working their way through 7000 pilots from all of the airlines based there.
I am based in Oman where I am training non-native speakers working with DGCAM.
Some of their controllers have already been tested to ICAO standards and have reached Level 4 and there has also been a very high amount of Level 5's too.
Pilots from Oman Air are in the final stages of reaching compliancy too and DGCAM are even extending that training to their ground ops and administration people too.
Remember also that ICAO is an advisory body - and policing of these requirements will be down to individual aviation authorities, hence the possibility of grandfathering.
ICAO may ask for evidence at some point that controllers are compliant but that is a while away for now, although I can't see it being as far away as some authorities think.
The most important thing is that all states actively move towards at least Level 4 in order to improve safety - that is, after all, what this is all about.
Native English speakers, at this point, do not have to be tested for compliance - however, this is an issue that has to be looked at closely.
The regulations are testing for competency in English (which native speakers have - mostly!) but they also test for proper use of ICAO phraseology - and that is something that not all native English speakers are compliant with.......I know I might be opening a can of worms here but I am of the opinion that all controllers and pilots, regardless of language origins, should be tested.
I hope that this helps a bit.
Farrell
Tribekey: Just to clarify. Anyone who reaches ICAO Level 6 - will not have to do the test again.
A Level 5 result should be updated every five years and a Level 4 every three years.
All ICAO member states have had years to prepare for March 2008 and some are doing better than others.
We had a representative of a certain country stand up at an ICAO conference a few weeks ago claiming that they had received no information at all about these regulations until six months ago. (That's where the bureaucracy headache comes in for some states.)
However, I will stress that the ICAO regulations although strict will not be policed with a very heavy hand come the deadline and I believe that there will be a limited grace period in the twelve months after the deadline passes.
At the moment, there are some countries, like China, who are in the process of training up everyone. I have colleagues over there who are working their way through 7000 pilots from all of the airlines based there.
I am based in Oman where I am training non-native speakers working with DGCAM.
Some of their controllers have already been tested to ICAO standards and have reached Level 4 and there has also been a very high amount of Level 5's too.
Pilots from Oman Air are in the final stages of reaching compliancy too and DGCAM are even extending that training to their ground ops and administration people too.
Remember also that ICAO is an advisory body - and policing of these requirements will be down to individual aviation authorities, hence the possibility of grandfathering.
ICAO may ask for evidence at some point that controllers are compliant but that is a while away for now, although I can't see it being as far away as some authorities think.
The most important thing is that all states actively move towards at least Level 4 in order to improve safety - that is, after all, what this is all about.
Native English speakers, at this point, do not have to be tested for compliance - however, this is an issue that has to be looked at closely.
The regulations are testing for competency in English (which native speakers have - mostly!) but they also test for proper use of ICAO phraseology - and that is something that not all native English speakers are compliant with.......I know I might be opening a can of worms here but I am of the opinion that all controllers and pilots, regardless of language origins, should be tested.
I hope that this helps a bit.
Farrell
Tribekey: Just to clarify. Anyone who reaches ICAO Level 6 - will not have to do the test again.
A Level 5 result should be updated every five years and a Level 4 every three years.
Last edited by Farrell; 24th Jun 2007 at 05:13.
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A Level 5 result should be updated every five years
What are the implications of not complying and filing a difference?
If its an ATS provider, then international carriers may not be able to operate into your airports. May be their choice or more likely their insurance company will not cover them if they operate into such an airspace.
I will stress that the ICAO regulations although strict will not be policed with a very heavy hand come the deadline and I believe that there will be a limited grace period in the twelve months after the deadline passes
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Insurance ?
" If its an ATS provider, then international carriers may not be able to operate into your airports.
May be their choice or more likely their insurance company will not cover them if they operate into such an airspace. "
May be their choice or more likely their insurance company will not cover them if they operate into such an airspace. "
Insurance, well. What is the line on insurance?
If I can not comply by having the licence endorsement - pilot or ATCO then would my liability insurance still cover me, or my employer ?
Thoughts please