Handoff's to Departure
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: In t'sky
Posts: 575
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Handoff's to Departure
Seasoned ATCO's..
Fresh faced from an Air Law ATPL exam, I find myself doubting something in the exam and was wondering if someone could give me the facts on a procedure.
When an aircraft departs, the syllabus guidance we have is, by law, the aircraft would normally just change frequency to departure without contacting ATC. This surely can't be right? Do aircraft normally just disappear off frequency to someone else without informing the controller they are already with? I've never heard or seen it done in real life - is this one of those grey areas where although the law is the law, it's done slightly differently?
Horgy
Fresh faced from an Air Law ATPL exam, I find myself doubting something in the exam and was wondering if someone could give me the facts on a procedure.
When an aircraft departs, the syllabus guidance we have is, by law, the aircraft would normally just change frequency to departure without contacting ATC. This surely can't be right? Do aircraft normally just disappear off frequency to someone else without informing the controller they are already with? I've never heard or seen it done in real life - is this one of those grey areas where although the law is the law, it's done slightly differently?
Horgy
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Anywhere
Posts: 2,212
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Don't do it unless it's a known SOP for a particular airport.
An example. Departure frequencies can be different depending on how busy the adjoining airspace is, or even which runway is in use at the departure airport.
Aircraft gets airborne and goes straight to (what he thinks) is the departure frequency. However, due to lack of traffic ACC has changed the frequency to increase the sector size, plus Approach needs to work traffic anyway to de-conflict from arrival. End result - aircraft is left hanging on a frequency which isn't in use, whilst Tower is trying to contact aircraft to transfer them.
In addition - at several airports Tower is responsible for verifying and validating your squawk before en-route transfer. Can't do that if you've changed frequency.
What I'd like to see is the next frequency given as part of the clearance ".....after departure contact........" if an automatic change is required, leave it out if it isn't. Takes away the guesswork about this that is starting to creep in.
An example. Departure frequencies can be different depending on how busy the adjoining airspace is, or even which runway is in use at the departure airport.
Aircraft gets airborne and goes straight to (what he thinks) is the departure frequency. However, due to lack of traffic ACC has changed the frequency to increase the sector size, plus Approach needs to work traffic anyway to de-conflict from arrival. End result - aircraft is left hanging on a frequency which isn't in use, whilst Tower is trying to contact aircraft to transfer them.
In addition - at several airports Tower is responsible for verifying and validating your squawk before en-route transfer. Can't do that if you've changed frequency.
What I'd like to see is the next frequency given as part of the clearance ".....after departure contact........" if an automatic change is required, leave it out if it isn't. Takes away the guesswork about this that is starting to creep in.
Guest
Posts: n/a
I guess the guessing is starting to creep in because it's covered in the JAA exam. Why it is in Air Law puzzles me slightly - which bit of legislation makes the answer correct throughout all JAA member States. If there is some, we didn't do a very good job in the UK of telling all the ATC units!
Remember that TV programme about 8 years ago (possibly longer) regarding New York's airports? The dep. controller at Newark would give takeoff clearance, and when airborne instruct the pilot to 'contact Noowark Departures' with no frequency given.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Germany
Age: 42
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am not sure how it is done in the UK (and it is certainly wayyy different in the US, especially in regards to phraseology), but in Germany you indeed do switch frequency immediately after departure - one notable exception of this rule is Munich.
But, and here comes the easy part - it is always written in the charts how you are supposed to do it.
So, not much to worry about.
If there is indeed a departure frequency differing from what is written in the charts (when the departure sectors at Frankfurt are combined, for example), it will be in the ATIS.
And in the clearance.
Which makes it amazing to see that quite regularly a few pilots will STILL not get it.
But that is a whole different topic, I guess.
Note that in some cases the Tower controller still wants you to stay on his frequency, despite what is written in the charts - but then he will tell you.
Regards,
Robert
But, and here comes the easy part - it is always written in the charts how you are supposed to do it.
So, not much to worry about.
If there is indeed a departure frequency differing from what is written in the charts (when the departure sectors at Frankfurt are combined, for example), it will be in the ATIS.
And in the clearance.
Which makes it amazing to see that quite regularly a few pilots will STILL not get it.
But that is a whole different topic, I guess.
Note that in some cases the Tower controller still wants you to stay on his frequency, despite what is written in the charts - but then he will tell you.
Regards,
Robert
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Anywhere
Posts: 2,212
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
But, and here comes the easy part - it is always written in the charts how you are supposed to do it.
So, not much to worry about.
So, not much to worry about.
If there is indeed a departure frequency differing from what is written in the charts (when the departure sectors at Frankfurt are combined, for example), it will be in the ATIS.
And in the clearance.
And in the clearance.
Such practice is fail dangerous, and as such is in need of review.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Germany
Age: 42
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Actually - it isn't. AERAD make no comment of this at all
Perhaps that differs between charts from different sources (Jeppesen, DFS)?
Again, not my experience. Departing from Tempelhof about 2 months ago. No mention of change automatically on the chart, however, we expected it (being Germany) and did so. Departure frequency on the chart was different to the frequency we were actually required to go to - no mention in the clearance, no mention on the ATIS.
Such practice is fail dangerous, and as such is in need of review.
Such practice is fail dangerous, and as such is in need of review.
Mind you, I am certainly not a seasoned ATCO, merely judging from what I have seen and worked with here during the last few months.
So feel free to take what I am saying with a grain of salt.
Regards,
Robert
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Scotland
Posts: 264
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As a tower controller, I have to keep departing traffic on my frequency until I know there's no confliction with anything going around from short final behind it. (I guess this is particularly relevant when dual runway ops are in progress at Manchester and Heathrow). In the event of having to issue avoiding action turns, it's much better to not have one crew in between frequencies (or having to coordinate avoiding action via a telephone line which takes time). Plus, of course, better situation awareness for both crews involved.
I remember one pilot giving a presentation to ATC and mentioning our 'magic camera' on the flight deck, which enables ATC to see whenever the crew is busy and hence to speak to them at exactly the wrong moment! We try to issue frequency change instructions at a sensible point on climbout (one A320 operator let us know that after 2500' is a good time, for example; fast-climbing positioning flights might want an early change to enable continuous climb, etc), so if any crews are reading this, any input on what helps you would be gratefully received!
I remember one pilot giving a presentation to ATC and mentioning our 'magic camera' on the flight deck, which enables ATC to see whenever the crew is busy and hence to speak to them at exactly the wrong moment! We try to issue frequency change instructions at a sensible point on climbout (one A320 operator let us know that after 2500' is a good time, for example; fast-climbing positioning flights might want an early change to enable continuous climb, etc), so if any crews are reading this, any input on what helps you would be gratefully received!
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Up North UK
Posts: 95
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That'll be the magic camera that ATC use to issue a further climb just AFTER the AFCS has switched to Alt Capture mode and the aircraft is pitching down to level off.
One airport (or one controller) in Northern Ireland has a very annoying habit of giving us the frequency change instruction when we're in the middle of the 'clean up' sequence after acceleration altitude.
One airport (or one controller) in Northern Ireland has a very annoying habit of giving us the frequency change instruction when we're in the middle of the 'clean up' sequence after acceleration altitude.
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Berkshire, UK
Age: 79
Posts: 8,268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
<<the aircraft would normally just change frequency to departure without contacting ATC.>>
Immensely dangerous and dreadful communication procedures. Who writes this rubbish?
Immensely dangerous and dreadful communication procedures. Who writes this rubbish?
Only half a speed-brake
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: USA
Age: 66
Posts: 2,183
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One airport (or one controller) in Northern Ireland has a very annoying habit of giving us the frequency change instruction when we're in the middle of the 'clean up' sequence after acceleration altitude
Guest
Posts: n/a
Or better yet what about us all having a properly funded and managed Fam Flight system in place so that we can all learn from each other?
But then I would also have thought that the basic adage that an aircraft won't slow down and go down at the same time would be understood by controllers coming out of initial training - but experience has proven me very wrong. Rather worryingly, I was faced with a trainee who told me that if it was important or true he would have been taught it during his college training!
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Germany
Age: 42
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Or better yet what about us all having a properly funded and managed Fam Flight system in place so that we can all learn from each other?
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Manchester
Posts: 129
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SOP at Manch....Contact Manchester "When Instructed" xxx.xx
OR if bandboxed [on Area] Contact Manchester When Instructed "non-standard freq" xxx.xx
Many [many] moons ago, Tower gave a "Clearance" to an RSAF C130. The C130 was taxying to the HOLD for R/w 24. The "Clearance" was a "SID", contact Departure, 124.2. The a/c stopped at tne Holding Point. Did his Power checks, then called Departure...at the Holding Point He was cleared (by Radar [departure]) to cilmb s/a 3500, turn Left Heading 160, climb FL60.
This he did.....except...he had NOT been cleared for TakeOff
Hence NOW the "When Instructed" addendum
bb
OR if bandboxed [on Area] Contact Manchester When Instructed "non-standard freq" xxx.xx
Many [many] moons ago, Tower gave a "Clearance" to an RSAF C130. The C130 was taxying to the HOLD for R/w 24. The "Clearance" was a "SID", contact Departure, 124.2. The a/c stopped at tne Holding Point. Did his Power checks, then called Departure...at the Holding Point He was cleared (by Radar [departure]) to cilmb s/a 3500, turn Left Heading 160, climb FL60.
This he did.....except...he had NOT been cleared for TakeOff
Hence NOW the "When Instructed" addendum
bb
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Germany
Age: 42
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Again, not my experience. Departing from Tempelhof about 2 months ago. No mention of change automatically on the chart
Says for all airports for all departures the frequency with "After Take-Off Contact" - for Munich the note to remain on tower frequency.
Note these are the official DFS charts, but if another chart producer omits that information, I would see him at fault.
Departure frequency on the chart was different to the frequency we were actually required to go to - no mention in the clearance, no mention on the ATIS.
Of course, that doesn't mean it always has to be the case - but it should be.
Also, I checked the German controller's manual and it explicitly says that a tower controller may not keep an IFR departure on his frequency unless the traffic situation calls for it.
Regards,
Robert
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: USA
Age: 66
Posts: 2,183
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would have thought that having an appreciation of when flightdeck workload is likely to be high should be basic knowledge for any controller
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Cornwall
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Straight to Departures etc
Many years ago I was working radar 2 position at a aerodrome in southwest Engurland. SATCO working radar 1.
Foreign twin jet given airways clearance by tower, including the airways frequency.
Light twin holding at FL40 on the climbout side of the field working radar 1.
Tower calls for departure instructions and I clear the aircraft to 3000ft with a right turn on track after noise.
The aircraft gets airbourne climbing straight ahead (noise procedure). Tower calls to instruct the aircraft to contact me. NOTHING!!
I watch the aircraft start to turn right passing 3000ft. It misses the holder by about a mile at the same level. My heart is going pitter pat. SATCO screams at me. I stutter that I stopped him at 3000ft (Yes it was separated). We watch the aircraft routing south climbing to its cleared level.
After our pulse rates had returned to normal we made some phone calls and found that the a/c had gone direct to airways, the airways controller had nothing in the way and cleared it direct to its initial airways level.
After the SATCOs next break a TOI was issued that NO frequency information should be given as part of airways clearance or departure instructions. This TOI was incorporatecd in MATS2 very soon after.
Automatic changes of frequency-NO THANK YOU
Surf Bum
Foreign twin jet given airways clearance by tower, including the airways frequency.
Light twin holding at FL40 on the climbout side of the field working radar 1.
Tower calls for departure instructions and I clear the aircraft to 3000ft with a right turn on track after noise.
The aircraft gets airbourne climbing straight ahead (noise procedure). Tower calls to instruct the aircraft to contact me. NOTHING!!
I watch the aircraft start to turn right passing 3000ft. It misses the holder by about a mile at the same level. My heart is going pitter pat. SATCO screams at me. I stutter that I stopped him at 3000ft (Yes it was separated). We watch the aircraft routing south climbing to its cleared level.
After our pulse rates had returned to normal we made some phone calls and found that the a/c had gone direct to airways, the airways controller had nothing in the way and cleared it direct to its initial airways level.
After the SATCOs next break a TOI was issued that NO frequency information should be given as part of airways clearance or departure instructions. This TOI was incorporatecd in MATS2 very soon after.
Automatic changes of frequency-NO THANK YOU
Surf Bum
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Oz
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Here in Oz, the aircraft must be instructed to contact Departures by the Tower. This can be either with the take-off clearance (if there are no spearation issues) , or once airborne (if Tower needs to monitor separation. Our MATS states that if Tower is providing vis sep, then the aircraft concerned must be on frequency).
Oz AIP states that in the absence of an instruction to transfer, the aircraft must remain on the Tower frequency, something few pilots seem to know.
Consequently, Tower controllers are getting into the bad habit of saying, 'remain this frequency airborne...' which is extraneous R/T, something no busy controller needs.
Although not standard, at my station the departure frequency is assigned at the end of the airway's clearance: 'Cleared to blah blah blah... departure frequency 118.4'.
As for when to instruct an airborne departing aircraft to contact Departures, well, I give up on the appropriate time. Some will be airborne on a climb gradient of 4.4 degrees (lot of terrain where I work), be dropping a wing as they pass 600FT in a 25 degree angle of bank turn and solicit "You want us on Departures"? Others will be wings level, passing 2500FT and when I instruct them, they'll tell me to standby and the Captain subsequently remark that I need to pick a more appropriate time to instruct them as they're 'quite busy'.
Oz AIP states that in the absence of an instruction to transfer, the aircraft must remain on the Tower frequency, something few pilots seem to know.
Consequently, Tower controllers are getting into the bad habit of saying, 'remain this frequency airborne...' which is extraneous R/T, something no busy controller needs.
Although not standard, at my station the departure frequency is assigned at the end of the airway's clearance: 'Cleared to blah blah blah... departure frequency 118.4'.
As for when to instruct an airborne departing aircraft to contact Departures, well, I give up on the appropriate time. Some will be airborne on a climb gradient of 4.4 degrees (lot of terrain where I work), be dropping a wing as they pass 600FT in a 25 degree angle of bank turn and solicit "You want us on Departures"? Others will be wings level, passing 2500FT and when I instruct them, they'll tell me to standby and the Captain subsequently remark that I need to pick a more appropriate time to instruct them as they're 'quite busy'.
A couple of the places I go to have automatic frequency changes after departure: at Dublin it's when airborne, at Amsterdam when passing 2000'. At Dublin the call is usually made when the gear is up and at neither place (because of Amsterdam's noise abatement procedure) does it interfere with the flap retraction.
