CTOT -5+10 ownership
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Quoting from the CFMU's ATFCM users manual
rgds
4.3. Slot Adherence
Aircraft Operators and ATC are jointly responsible for slot compliance at departure
aerodromes.
4.3.1. Aircraft Operators
In order to comply with a CTOT, AOs need to plan the departure of a flight so that the aircraft will be ready for start up in sufficient time to comply with a CTOT taking into account the taxitime shown in the SAM.
Aircraft Operators shall inform themselves of and adhere to:
a) General ATFCM procedures including flight plan filing, strategic ATFCM measures and message exchange requirements.
and
b) Current ATFCM measures (e.g. specific measures applicable on the day in question, such as ATFCM slot or flight suspension).
4.3.2. ATC
a) ATC is responsible for departure slot monitoring at departure aerodromes. The exact procedures to be followed will depend on the way that ATS is organised at each aerodrome.
b) States shall ensure that an ATFCM slot, if applicable, be included as part of the ATC clearance. ATC shall take account of an applicable slot or flight suspension when a clearance is issued.
c) ATC units responsible for departure slot monitoring shall be provided with the necessary information concerning the restrictions in force and slots allocated.
d) ATC is also required to provide all possible assistance to AOs to meet a CTOT or to coordinate a revised CTOT.
e) A slot window of –5’ to +10’ is available to ATC to optimise the departure sequence.
f) ATC may deny start up clearance to flights unable to meet their slots until coordination with the FMP/CFMU has been effected and a revised CTOT issued.
Aircraft Operators and ATC are jointly responsible for slot compliance at departure
aerodromes.
4.3.1. Aircraft Operators
In order to comply with a CTOT, AOs need to plan the departure of a flight so that the aircraft will be ready for start up in sufficient time to comply with a CTOT taking into account the taxitime shown in the SAM.
Aircraft Operators shall inform themselves of and adhere to:
a) General ATFCM procedures including flight plan filing, strategic ATFCM measures and message exchange requirements.
and
b) Current ATFCM measures (e.g. specific measures applicable on the day in question, such as ATFCM slot or flight suspension).
4.3.2. ATC
a) ATC is responsible for departure slot monitoring at departure aerodromes. The exact procedures to be followed will depend on the way that ATS is organised at each aerodrome.
b) States shall ensure that an ATFCM slot, if applicable, be included as part of the ATC clearance. ATC shall take account of an applicable slot or flight suspension when a clearance is issued.
c) ATC units responsible for departure slot monitoring shall be provided with the necessary information concerning the restrictions in force and slots allocated.
d) ATC is also required to provide all possible assistance to AOs to meet a CTOT or to coordinate a revised CTOT.
e) A slot window of –5’ to +10’ is available to ATC to optimise the departure sequence.
f) ATC may deny start up clearance to flights unable to meet their slots until coordination with the FMP/CFMU has been effected and a revised CTOT issued.
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Originally Posted by routechecker
b) States shall ensure that an ATFCM slot, if applicable, be included as part of the ATC clearance.
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When I worked at Gatwick the taxi times were the same for both runways at 20 mins in the summer and reducing to 15 mins in the winter period.
This Eurocontrol page gives the taxi times declared to CFMU
CTOT -5+10 ownership
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In the Finnish controller's handbook we have an instruction saying "when aircraft has received its start-up approval, a minor taxiing delay should not prohibit its departure". Reading this thread has given me an impression that this is a unique rule for Finland, or am I wrong? I find the rule rather amusing, because otherwise accurate and formal book has such inexact definition as "minor".
Join Date: Mar 2004
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And thats the next step:
A0962/07 NOTAMN
Q) EDGG/QFAXX/IV/B/A/000/999/
A) EDDF B) 0704240200 C) PERM
E) NEW DEP MANAGEMENT SYSTEM (DMAN) IN OPERATION. REFER TO AIC IFR 2, 15 FEB 07 FOR PROCEDURES.
TARGET TIMES FOR START-UP APPROVAL (TSAT) AND OFF-BLOCK APPROVAL
(TOAT) ARE GENERATED. TOAT IS PUBLISHED IN THE AIRPORT INFORMATION
SYSTEMS. START-UP IS TO BE REQUESTED AT TSAT, (5 MINUTES BEFORE
TOAT), PUSH BACK OR TAXI IS TO BE REQUESTED AT TOAT. PILOTS SHOULD
ADHERE TO THE ASSIGNED TARGET TIMES.
SMS SERVICE IS AVAILABLE UNDER +41 76 3337777. SEND SMS WITH KEYWORD TOAT AND FLIGHT NUMBER (E.G. TOAT XY123) FOR INFORMATION ABOUT TARGET OFF BLOCK APPROVAL TIME (TOAT). YOU WILL RECEIVE INFORMATION ANDUPDATES AUTOMATICALLY.
The system is driving me crazy. But I´m just a lowlife executive pilot.
Another 25 years before pension.
A0962/07 NOTAMN
Q) EDGG/QFAXX/IV/B/A/000/999/
A) EDDF B) 0704240200 C) PERM
E) NEW DEP MANAGEMENT SYSTEM (DMAN) IN OPERATION. REFER TO AIC IFR 2, 15 FEB 07 FOR PROCEDURES.
TARGET TIMES FOR START-UP APPROVAL (TSAT) AND OFF-BLOCK APPROVAL
(TOAT) ARE GENERATED. TOAT IS PUBLISHED IN THE AIRPORT INFORMATION
SYSTEMS. START-UP IS TO BE REQUESTED AT TSAT, (5 MINUTES BEFORE
TOAT), PUSH BACK OR TAXI IS TO BE REQUESTED AT TOAT. PILOTS SHOULD
ADHERE TO THE ASSIGNED TARGET TIMES.
SMS SERVICE IS AVAILABLE UNDER +41 76 3337777. SEND SMS WITH KEYWORD TOAT AND FLIGHT NUMBER (E.G. TOAT XY123) FOR INFORMATION ABOUT TARGET OFF BLOCK APPROVAL TIME (TOAT). YOU WILL RECEIVE INFORMATION ANDUPDATES AUTOMATICALLY.
The system is driving me crazy. But I´m just a lowlife executive pilot.
Another 25 years before pension.
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What says ICAO DOC 4444 :
7.8 CONTROL OF DEPARTING AIRCRAFT
7.8.1 Departure sequence
Note 2.— For aircraft subject to ATFM requirements, it is the responsibility of the pilot and the operator to ensure that the aircraft is ready to taxi in time to meet any required departure time, bearing in mind that once a departure sequence is established on the taxiway system, it can be difficult, and sometimes impossible, to change the order.
About variable taxi time ( "a concept" buildt by the CDM experts..) a very simple equation :
EOBT + variable taxi time = Variable take off time....Is it what we are looking for ?
At a large HUB airport, just a passenger missing can move a flight n°5 in a line of 5 wide bodies A/C which need to push in a row, instead of N°1 on standard schedule. The taxi time ( I think it would be more appropriate to use taxi "duration" and include push back and waiting time at Apron) will be increase by may be 15/20 minutes compared to a normal taxi "duration" if N°1 in the row.
So if the "variable taxi time" is 20 minutes, + or - 15 minutes, do'nt expect any improvement...
7.8 CONTROL OF DEPARTING AIRCRAFT
7.8.1 Departure sequence
Note 2.— For aircraft subject to ATFM requirements, it is the responsibility of the pilot and the operator to ensure that the aircraft is ready to taxi in time to meet any required departure time, bearing in mind that once a departure sequence is established on the taxiway system, it can be difficult, and sometimes impossible, to change the order.
About variable taxi time ( "a concept" buildt by the CDM experts..) a very simple equation :
EOBT + variable taxi time = Variable take off time....Is it what we are looking for ?
At a large HUB airport, just a passenger missing can move a flight n°5 in a line of 5 wide bodies A/C which need to push in a row, instead of N°1 on standard schedule. The taxi time ( I think it would be more appropriate to use taxi "duration" and include push back and waiting time at Apron) will be increase by may be 15/20 minutes compared to a normal taxi "duration" if N°1 in the row.
So if the "variable taxi time" is 20 minutes, + or - 15 minutes, do'nt expect any improvement...
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of course, some uk places have a more relaxed attitude to CTOT tolerance and just get the aircraft airborne within a reasonable period, so it doesn't really matter who owns it.
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of course, some uk places have a more relaxed attitude to CTOT tolerance and just get the aircraft airborne within a reasonable period, so it doesn't really matter who owns it.
UK and European airspace is a finite resource and as such needs to be managed efficiently. Flow management by the application of CTOTs helps to optimise ATC capacity by ensuring the mose effective use of ATC resources.
That CTOT is given for a reason - somewhere up the line is an enroute sector or airfield that may as a consequence of this 'more relaxed attitude' find itself in an overload situation or worse.
Before taking the above thoughtless action ATCOs need to ask themselves the question - "Do I know what I might create downstream if I do this?"
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FJ,
You will find the CFMU ATFCM Users Manual online here. Page 27.
It seems like a few Scandinavian companies could need a brush up on CFMU procedures...
You will find the CFMU ATFCM Users Manual online here. Page 27.
It seems like a few Scandinavian companies could need a brush up on CFMU procedures...
niknak
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Very professional response Legs.
If it's a matter of a couple of minutes, stuff what happens down the line, I would have thought that even you could understand that en route weather, traffic etc means that the aircraft may be delayed or expidited en route, and, more often than not, given a direct routing to assist and reflect the "real time" situation.
Fortunately,anyone with common sense, (that's the majority of us) would consult the flow manager if there was going to be an over run of 5 minutes or more, or let it go anyway if there was less.
If it's a matter of a couple of minutes, stuff what happens down the line, I would have thought that even you could understand that en route weather, traffic etc means that the aircraft may be delayed or expidited en route, and, more often than not, given a direct routing to assist and reflect the "real time" situation.
Fortunately,anyone with common sense, (that's the majority of us) would consult the flow manager if there was going to be an over run of 5 minutes or more, or let it go anyway if there was less.
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Cue the can of worms just opened by niknak......
Many units have pilots that try and take the p1$$ by requesting start AFTER CTOT saying things like "well can't you get us an extension?" or "we will only be a couple of minutes late!", or "don't we have +10?!" In this case, the onus is on the company to contact the Flow peeps to re-negotiate. ATC should NOT delay the FPL EOBT as that prevents FMP making tactical, real time decisions!
The flip side of the coin is that if the aircraft has requested P&S in good time to make it's CTOT but is held up in a queue AT the hold, FMP normally recognise this and don't mind anything up to CTOT +15 getting airborne (in my experience). Clearly if the delay is going to be more than a couple of minutes, it would be professional courtesy to contact FMP to check before launching, as you, sat at an airfield many miles away, do not know what the impact of the regulation will be to other airfields, en-route sectors and TC holds.
The phrase "stuff what happens down the line" doesn't fill any pilot or controller with confidence. There is a reason for everything in aviation with an associated consequence. I would hope that we are not so insular as to realise this!
Many units have pilots that try and take the p1$$ by requesting start AFTER CTOT saying things like "well can't you get us an extension?" or "we will only be a couple of minutes late!", or "don't we have +10?!" In this case, the onus is on the company to contact the Flow peeps to re-negotiate. ATC should NOT delay the FPL EOBT as that prevents FMP making tactical, real time decisions!
The flip side of the coin is that if the aircraft has requested P&S in good time to make it's CTOT but is held up in a queue AT the hold, FMP normally recognise this and don't mind anything up to CTOT +15 getting airborne (in my experience). Clearly if the delay is going to be more than a couple of minutes, it would be professional courtesy to contact FMP to check before launching, as you, sat at an airfield many miles away, do not know what the impact of the regulation will be to other airfields, en-route sectors and TC holds.
The phrase "stuff what happens down the line" doesn't fill any pilot or controller with confidence. There is a reason for everything in aviation with an associated consequence. I would hope that we are not so insular as to realise this!
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From the operator's point of view, the simplest way out of this jungle is to own up to delivery, tell them your situation and ask for the latest time they will grant push/start with regard to the prevailing traffic to/at the various holding points/positions.
Works well with the welcome cooperation of the guys and gals in the twr at Lgw - for which, thanks.
Cheers,
mcdhu
Works well with the welcome cooperation of the guys and gals in the twr at Lgw - for which, thanks.
Cheers,
mcdhu
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This Eurocontrol page gives the taxi times declared to CFMU
Although not yet operational within the UK, when (if ??) Eurocontrol's Flight Activation Monitoring (http://www.cfmu.eurocontrol.be/cfmu/...etfms_fam.html) is extended to UK airspace, flights that are not airborne within their CTOT or (EOBT if unregulated) tolerances will be subject to an automatically generated CFMU 'flight suspension' message. This happens if the SSR of the flight in question is not activated within the CTOT or EOBT tolerance (+ whatever additional time [measured in seconds] is allowed for the en-route radars to process the flight's SSR return).
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CTOT -5+10 ownership
It would be interesting to know if you have checked the CFMU handbook lately. I think that the text below from the handbook is very clear about the "ownership" of the 15 minutes windows;
"A slot window of -5 to + 10 minutes is available to ATC to optimise the departure sequence"
"A slot window of -5 to + 10 minutes is available to ATC to optimise the departure sequence"
