Hot Air Balloon & Radar
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Bellwether&cloudbuster
Joined: Mar 2007
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From: Bristol UK
Hot Air Balloon & Radar
Just a little survey amongst you ATC people. When hot air balloons are in your airspace can you actually see them on radar, or not at all? (This assumes they are not transponder equipped....) I am interested in the capability of radars to detect small aircraft, and because of the material balloons are built out of, I assume they are one of the most difficult to detect, although microlights and gliders and also probably quite hard.
aceatco, retired
Joined: Sep 2002
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From: one airshow or another
Our steam driven AR15 (RIP 
) use to see balloons even though it had MTI (moving target indicator - the thing that gets rid of permanent echoes). Gliders and microlights weren't a problem too. I once gave traffic information to a B25 (yep, a B25) that was landing at Bovingdon for filming when the pilot announced he had the traffic in sight, it was 'a large model airplane'. 
I'm sure I have seen balloons on our ATM, and the police heli shows up when it is doing not many knots.
) use to see balloons even though it had MTI (moving target indicator - the thing that gets rid of permanent echoes). Gliders and microlights weren't a problem too. I once gave traffic information to a B25 (yep, a B25) that was landing at Bovingdon for filming when the pilot announced he had the traffic in sight, it was 'a large model airplane'. I'm sure I have seen balloons on our ATM, and the police heli shows up when it is doing not many knots.
Tabs please!
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From: Biffins Bridge
The radar will be reflected by the propane tanks which are steel or titanium if the pilot is extremely rich. The pilots watch will also give a good return signal 
As has been said above, the return will be filtered out as clutter due to the balloon tooling along at 15kts.
A lot of balloonies avoid talking to ATC if at all possible due to lack of practice and the fact that firing the burners makes it impossible to hear the controller. Not firing the burners is rarely a good idea ! They do (generally) know their position with respect to zone boundaries to a high degree of accuracy. Navigating with a GPS, an OS scale map marked with airspace restrictions and with an unobstructed view of the ground is a piece of cake.
As has been said above, the return will be filtered out as clutter due to the balloon tooling along at 15kts.
A lot of balloonies avoid talking to ATC if at all possible due to lack of practice and the fact that firing the burners makes it impossible to hear the controller. Not firing the burners is rarely a good idea ! They do (generally) know their position with respect to zone boundaries to a high degree of accuracy. Navigating with a GPS, an OS scale map marked with airspace restrictions and with an unobstructed view of the ground is a piece of cake.
Thread Starter
Bellwether&cloudbuster
Joined: Mar 2007
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From: Bristol UK
Thanks for the replies. I know a balloon instructor well and would be interested in any ATC feedback where balloonies are not talking to ATC and should be. He can then insert it nicely or painfully into their ears, depending on the attitude test! 
Tabs please!
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From: Biffins Bridge
Ask your mate to take you on a flight.
I used to bimble over the top of the Benson zone a few years back when they had fewer choppers and I could never get a response. They were either asleep or outside playing golf.
I used to bimble over the top of the Benson zone a few years back when they had fewer choppers and I could never get a response. They were either asleep or outside playing golf.
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From: Scotland
On the old 'raw' Watchman displays, especially when the target was close to the radar head (15 miles or less) we'd see plenty; I've passed traffic info on a flock of birds (travelling crosswind, that was the clue!), a bunch of toy helium balloons, microlights. The trouble with a balloon is that it moves with any weather returns so it's harder to interpret.
With the new processed data displays, you lose lots of that ability to interpret returns as they're all dots and crosses now!
One of the balloons that flies in our zone has a transponder and he's REALLY easy to spot now.......
With the new processed data displays, you lose lots of that ability to interpret returns as they're all dots and crosses now!
One of the balloons that flies in our zone has a transponder and he's REALLY easy to spot now.......
StandupfortheUlstermen
Joined: Dec 2001
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From: Peoples' Democratic Republic of Wurzelsetshire
Tis a bit hit and miss for us with our 511, sometimes we see them but mostly we don't. PITA when the Bristol or Bath balloon fiestas are on.
Thread Starter
Bellwether&cloudbuster
Joined: Mar 2007
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From: Bristol UK
You guys will have to educate us non tech types on the radar systems you have, I mean if you can equate some systems to an Austin Metro and some to Ferrari 355 F1, then I can see what you are talking about.....
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From: wherever I lay my headset
picking up balloons (geese, parachutists etc etc)... can be done, some radars are better than other, and it also depends on performance on that day, affected by atmospherics, weather and equipment is set up.
If you recall old "steam-drive" wireless...(?) there were days when the reception was loud and clear, but at othertimes it would drift in and out or there'd be some static. In my experience radar works in much the same way.
Will add, crucially, these targets often generate very small weak returns, so another factor is the controller and skill to be able to pick this pin-prick out from other radar clutter (maybe experience, alertness or workload affected). If you are lucky enough to have clutter free radar, then you're probably not seeing these small targets. You can't win?
(Off course if you're required to carry Mode S when mandated the whole situation will change)
If you recall old "steam-drive" wireless...(?) there were days when the reception was loud and clear, but at othertimes it would drift in and out or there'd be some static. In my experience radar works in much the same way.
Will add, crucially, these targets often generate very small weak returns, so another factor is the controller and skill to be able to pick this pin-prick out from other radar clutter (maybe experience, alertness or workload affected). If you are lucky enough to have clutter free radar, then you're probably not seeing these small targets. You can't win?
(Off course if you're required to carry Mode S when mandated the whole situation will change)
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From: west london
Had a report of a balloon in the London TMA the other morning. Was clearly seen on Watchman, about three miles west of BPK, slowly moving south. The scary thing was, it was reported by a Luton departure outbound towards BPK and estimated at 4000 feet! (TMA base 2500 feet!).
With regards to parachutes, had a C130 dropping SF from FL240 on several occasions. The jumpers were clearly visible on the Debden radar. The C130 would spiral down with them and, on occasion, would lose visual contact. As they were still painting clearly, it was possible to pass traffic information to the pilot.
A17
With regards to parachutes, had a C130 dropping SF from FL240 on several occasions. The jumpers were clearly visible on the Debden radar. The C130 would spiral down with them and, on occasion, would lose visual contact. As they were still painting clearly, it was possible to pass traffic information to the pilot.
A17
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From: UK
I would suggest the RCS of propane tanks and burners probably have a higher Radar Cross Section than some GA Light Aircraft which are increasingly made out of composite materials.
Controllers may not necessarily notice a balloon because of its low velocity, therefore the history dots wont be easy to interpret and may just consider it as routine radar clutter.
What with compulsory SSR transponder carriage apparently being implemented in 2008 I understand balloons will also have to carry a transponder. Where they get the power from is anyones guess!
Controllers may not necessarily notice a balloon because of its low velocity, therefore the history dots wont be easy to interpret and may just consider it as routine radar clutter.
What with compulsory SSR transponder carriage apparently being implemented in 2008 I understand balloons will also have to carry a transponder. Where they get the power from is anyones guess!
Joined: Aug 2001
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From: Under the Long White Cloud
Battery life should not be a problem. In NZ we have areas of transponder mandatory airspace and gliders seem to have no problems keeping their transponders going whilst in such airspace.
Joined: Jan 2005
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From: Cambridgeshire
Hot Air Balloons
Watchman radar picks them up close ish in, say 15 miles . I had one last year and asked him to set QFE and report his height..........eh minus 50ft! My airport on a 500ft hill!
Radar can pick up all sorts, last week I was flying and ATC called traffic right to left 2 nm no height. It was I think the 1415 Cardiff to Paddington GWR train! Up in northern Scotland in the Moray Firth have had oil rigs called to me. Though of course in ATC we have to call any contact.
NM
Radar can pick up all sorts, last week I was flying and ATC called traffic right to left 2 nm no height. It was I think the 1415 Cardiff to Paddington GWR train! Up in northern Scotland in the Moray Firth have had oil rigs called to me. Though of course in ATC we have to call any contact.
NM
