What happens to my flightplan?

[chiglet]

vA
XXXZZ files a VFR fpl from LFOI [Abbville] to EGNE [Gamston]
Lille [LFQQZPZX] transmit said fpl to Gamston. Gamston is not on the AFTN. Fpl "defaults" to Manchester, because we are the "Parent AFTN" for ALL Stations [At home so no map, but from memory....] from the Southern edge of [the old] Airway Green One....eg Kemble to the London/Scottish FIR Boundary .....Carlisle, and from the Belfast CTR to the East Coast of England.
So [B]IF[B] you file a Flight Plan, VFR or IFR from, or to an Aerodrome within this AOR [Area Of Responsibility] Manchester PAFTN "should" get it, andfax it to the recipient Airfield
Hope this clarifies the situation
watp,iktch

[vintage ATCO]

It does but nowhere in the AIP does it say in such circumstances the pilot has to close his FPL with the Parent Unit unless he has nominated that unit as his Responsible Person. Earlier you seem to assert that is 'in order' in all cases. How would a pilot know by filing a FPL to Gamston, as per your example, the Parent Unit is involved?

I am just concerned that we are clouding the issue for people like BackPacker. AIP ENR 1-10-3 refers.

[GBALU53]

Safe Flying by Fileing a plan

Sould the pilot not know who his parent station is when operating in the U.K.

The same systems operates in France and they are very hot if the flight plan is not closed after landing.

Ther are a number of pilots flying in and out of airfields that have no aftn and some have no ATC and all these pilots should know the importence and the reason when and why to file a plan and how it operates and to activate when airbourne also the importence to close the plan on arrival.

If you don,t know ask and learn and ATC will look after the plan and the follow up action as and when.

There is a CAC publication out on flight planning and it was three pounds sterling the last time I checked so for three pounds it save a lot of aggro when pilots don,t follow the recommended rules.

It is nice and reassuring how safe your flight can be by following the guide lines.

[vintage ATCO]

The same systems operates in France and they are very hot if the flight plan is not closed after landing.

Ther are a number of pilots flying in and out of airfields that have no aftn and some have no ATC and all these pilots should know the importence and the reason when and why to file a plan and how it operates and to activate when airbourne also the importence to close the plan on arrival.

This is the UK we are talking about and the system is NOT the same. I don't know why but there it is. There is no concept (with the one important exception mentiobned above) in UK ATC of closing a FPL and it just confuses matters for the original poster if people keep saying it. It's all in ENR 1.10.

[BackPacker]

Summary?

Is it safe to summarize this whole discussion as follows?

In anywhere but the UK, the FPL is used as a basis to initiate a SAR op when a plane is overdue. For this purpose, a flight plan needs to be submitted (generally to a FIO which distributes it further) and opened (when leaving from a controlled field, by the tower. Otherwise it's the pilots responsibility to pass the airborne time to the first ATC unit they're in contact with, who will then open the FPL.) The FPL is then transmitted via the AFTN to the arrival A/D, who will use the airborne time and the EET to calculate the arrival time. If a plane is overdue at this arrival time (presumably +30 minutes) they will initiate SAR action. Obviously, they will first ring a few likely places where the plane might have landed, and try to contact both the owner and the pilot, before the rescue choppers actually get into the air.
For this reason, it is very important to close your flightplan, and pass on any changes to the plan (for instance diverting to an alternate). Closing is done automatically at a controlled field. At an uncontrolled field, you ask the en-route ATC unit to close the plan for you when close to the field, or telephone the FIO after arrival.

In the UK the situation is different. Flightplans are not used automatically as the basis for SAR action. Instead, the pilot has to nominate a "Responsible Person". This RP is supposed to receive both a departure and an arrival message, and is supposed to initiate a SAR action if the plane is overdue. You can nominate your friend Bob as your RP, in which case you give him a call before and after the flight. But if you nominate an ATC unit (typically a "Parent ATCO") as your RP, you need to make sure they get these messages too, either by contacting them yourself, or making sure that the FPL ARR/DEP message is sent to them.

That's for flights which are wholly contained in the UK, or fully outside the UK. What for flights into or leaving the UK? As it's the arrival airfield which normally initiate a SAR action I'd guess the following course of action is the best:

For flights inbound into the UK, ring your destination before the flight, and ask them to be the Responsible Person for your flight. If you put them as destination in the flightplan (which you would obviously do) they should be getting the DEP message through the AFTN (or fax if they're not connected). And they know you've arrived, by looking out the window.

For flights outbound from the UK, all you have to do is file a flightplan and close it upon arrival.

Any improvements, remarks, modifications?

[vintage ATCO]

Almost I am sorry this is becoming more confusing than it needs be.

If you file a FPL into the UK to an airfield that is on the AFTN or can receive your FPL details via another means, and most importantly, a DEP message, then they will initiate overdue action if you fail to arrive within 30 mins of ETA (and full overdue action after an hour). You don't have to 'nominate' them to do this. When you arrive at this destination you need do nothing about closing the FPL, as it is deemed 'closed on arrival'.

The problem only arises if your destination cannot receive your FPL details and be expecting you, you need to ask someone to be the Responsible Person. It is this person who needs to alert the authorities of your non-arrival and therefore needs to be told of your arrival if he or she isn't waiting for you at the airfield. If you have to ask the Parent ATC unit (or other ATC unit) to be that 'Responsible Person' then you must inform them withing 30 mins of your arrival otherwise they will commence overdue action.

Any clearer?

As an aside, I have been asked to close a FPL by someone who we were acting as the Responsible Person over the RT ("I'm about to land, can you close my FPL?") Just in case he crashed and burnt I asked him to ring us on landing.

[GBALU53]

Hope it is all clear to these PPL holders now and they know what to do every time they get in the air it is not only there neck on the line but could be others as well.

[BackPacker]

Vintage, just to clarify your last post:

The situation you're describing applies both to UK->UK and International->UK flights? So if you're flying to a destination within the UK which is connected to the AFTN network (presumably every controlled airport is) then your FPL, combined with a DEP message is enough to initiate overdue action? You don't need to nominate an RP, just make sure that your flight plan is opened?

So, the only time you need to nominate an RP is when flying to a non-AFTN connected destination (ie. an uncontrolled field)? If the RP is on the field then he can witness the arrival so no further action is required, other than to celebrate your landing in the pub. But if the RP is not on the field (your mate Bob stays at home, or you have used some ATC unit somewhere to act as your RP) then you give them a call. And obviously you call them after landing, not before... :-)

GBALU53: ACK but how can we force every PPL to read this thread? :-)

[GBALU53]

vintage atco

I agree you can not force but at the end of the day is it not part of gaining a PPL flight planning?

The are good train schools and instructors and there are the others do i need to go any further with that.

We have read about aircraft accidents where pilots have not activated a flight plan and crashed is that a good thing or plane stupid how can you get through to these PPL holders how immportant some things are.

We have flight transit Class A airspace crossing a very lot of water crossing an international boundary and they still have not filed a plane should there be some follow up action for some of these and PPL holders that cross the line get fined or points on the licence or some thing to get the message through it is there life but do it correctly and it will not effect others.

[BackPacker]

GBALU53, the whole FPL thing was indeed part of my training and exams. The unit "The Full Flight Plan" is eight whole pages. Of these eight pages, two are "unit preamble" pages which contain no useful information whatsoever. Two pages (one of which is a map of the UK showing the difficult areas) cover WHEN you're required, urged and allowed to file a flight plan. Two pages cover the FPL itself, with the fields that need to be filled in, one page is revision answers. That leaves only one page to discuss HOW to file a flight plan, and what happens afterwards, including how a SAR operation gets started. I just read throught this page again, and nowhere does it mention the fact that the whole Responsible Person thing is strictly a UK thing.

Now consider the fact that the total stack of study books is over 10 cm. That I did my theory exams according to the CAA syllabus, had my practical flight training in the US, and fly in NL now. But even if you trained and flew exclusively in the UK I think you can get a PPL without ever having to fill in the ICAO form. Particularly if the school you flew with operated from an uncontrolled field, and the school dispatcher automatically assumed the role of RP for all flights.

I'd like to do this by the book, if only for my own safety, but unfortunately the books were not very clear in this case. That's why I came to this forum.

[vintage ATCO]

BackPacker: Spot on.

GBALU53: Sorry, not sure I understand your last post. All I am trying to do is answer BackPacker's question as it applies in the UK.

[BackPacker]

Okay, trying yet another summary....

The FPL is generally used as a basis to initiate a SAR op when a plane is overdue. For this purpose, a flight plan needs to be submitted and opened/activated. The FPL is then transmitted via the AFTN to the arrival A/D, who will use the airborne time and the EET to calculate the arrival time. If a plane is more than 30 minutes overdue at this arrival time they will initiate SAR action. Obviously, they will first ring a few likely places where the plane might have landed, and try to contact both the owner and the pilot, before the rescue choppers actually get into the air. To prevent SAR action, it is very important to close your flightplan, and to pass on any changes to the plan, for instance a revised ETA or diverting to an alternate.

Submitting a flight plan: Flight plans are submitted to ATC units that are ready to accept them. This can be done by internet, fax and sometimes by telephone as well. Consult your countries AIP to see how and where you can submit a flight plan. Typically, your local airfield staff (be it uncontrolled or controlled) will be able to help you out. Changing a flight plan before flight, or cancelling a flight plan before the flight takes place is handled in the same way.

Opening (activating) a flight plan: Flight plans are opened by the tower on a controlled airfield. As pilot, you don't need to worry about this. On uncontrolled fields, the responsibility to open a flight plan lies with the pilot. There are two ways of getting the flight plan opened in this case: You can nominate a "Responsible Person" at your departure airfield to phone your departure to a "Parent ATSU" (this is only done in the UK), you can ask the information or A/G service on the airfield to phone the coordinating ATC unit, or you can ask the first en-route ATC unit that you talk to to open the plan for you. In both cases, you are required to pass on the Actual Time of Departure (ATD).

Chaninging a flight plan en-route is generally handled by the en-route ATC unit you're talking to.

Closing a flight plan is automatically and implicitly done when you arrive at your destination, provided that your destination is a controlled airfield. If your destination is an uncontrolled field however, there are several options, and the situation in the UK is different from the situation elsewhere in Europe:

In continental Europe and in Ireland, it is the pilots responsibility to close the flight plan explicitly. This can be done while still in the air by contacting an en-route ATC unit when you are close to your destination and ask them to close the plan, or by phoning a Flight Information Office within 30 minutes after landing. Your countries AIP will have the details on who to call, and the destination airfield might have an information or A/G service which can help you out as well.

In the UK, if you fly to an uncontrolled airfield, the flightplan is also not formally closed automagically. In fact, the UK doesn't have a concept of "closing a flightplan". Because of this, if you fly to an uncontrolled airfield, your flight plan is not used as a basis to initiate a SAR action. Instead, the UK uses the concept of Responsible Person again. This RP is supposed to receive both a departure and an arrival message, and is supposed to initiate a SAR action if the plane is overdue. You can nominate your friend Bob as your RP, in which case you give him a call before and after the flight. But you can also ask (by phone, before the flight) an ATC unit (typically a "Parent ATCO") as your RP for the flight. In this case you need to give them a phonecall within 30 minutes after landing to notify them of your safe arrival (and thank them for their services). Generally you do not need to inform a Parent ATCO of your departure, since they will automatically receive a DEP message through the AFTN - provided that you picked the right Parent ATCO of course (the one which has Parent ATCO responsibility for your destination).

Note - I have assumed here that all controlled airfields are somehow connected to the AFTN, and all uncontrolled airfields are not. That's not necessarily true however, but as a pilot, it's going to be very hard for me to find out whether a field is properly connected or not. But I do know whether a field is controlled or not. If in doubt, call your destination beforehand!

Better???

[vintage ATCO]

I think . . Maybe . . Sort of . . . Yes . .

On the other hand . . .

[BackPacker]

ROFLLMAO

You sure exhausted a weeks supply of smileys there!