ATC causing a stir in the Western Isles
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I will start by saying that I fully understand why the guys are shutting. And the ATCO that has booked time off, you stick to your guns mate its not your problem.
The timing thing is getting mucked up due to the very strong head winds over the last few weeks which are upwards of 60knts. Which has been delaying alot of aircraft so arriving late so the rest period has unfortunately clashed with the outbound.
The Captain of Logie that morning is really not the type to make PA's slagging off SYY tower. It really isn't his style. And to be fair I think that the tower did say that they had to shut for a 30min teabreak due controller shortage.
I would also like to thank Benbecular Tower for keeping an eye on things and giving us a heads up if a short notice closure has occured.
The boys have been on the end of quite a bit of banter and taken it with good humour. It did make me smile when I heard Bristows had offered to send a packet of biscuits over to help out.
Lets just hope nobody goes ill.
The timing thing is getting mucked up due to the very strong head winds over the last few weeks which are upwards of 60knts. Which has been delaying alot of aircraft so arriving late so the rest period has unfortunately clashed with the outbound.
The Captain of Logie that morning is really not the type to make PA's slagging off SYY tower. It really isn't his style. And to be fair I think that the tower did say that they had to shut for a 30min teabreak due controller shortage.
I would also like to thank Benbecular Tower for keeping an eye on things and giving us a heads up if a short notice closure has occured.
The boys have been on the end of quite a bit of banter and taken it with good humour. It did make me smile when I heard Bristows had offered to send a packet of biscuits over to help out.
Lets just hope nobody goes ill.
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with all this talk of controller shortages from HH to PO and PM perhaps it could be time for another pay rise to keep the staff they have got !
I see the RAF are even offering recruitment and retention bonus now to entice rtd ex mil types!
I see the RAF are even offering recruitment and retention bonus now to entice rtd ex mil types!
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Best of look guys, I know how you feel.
I'm familiar with an airport that used to shut every two hours for a half hour break due to staffing for a while during a summer and there is always a pressure to break schratco.
They never got into the paper though so had to fight it out on their own!
Problem is that the CAA regard any time you are plugged in position, whether talking to aircraft or not, as being on duty and so you cannot say that because nothing happened for half an hour you've had a break.
A lot of pilots and management types often don't understand this fact and find it hard to accept that you're not actually being difficult for the sake of it, you're protecting your licence which is your major source of income.
Often the problem also occurs that when you shut and take your break, you come back to open up again the traffic situation you have to resolve can be very difficult and a lot worse than it would have been if you had broke schratco and continued working anyway.
Catch 22!
The only way it will ever be resolved is to get more controllers but staffing will always be an issue at some of the smaller airfields because the large airfields will always be able to pay more money and poach your staff.
I'm familiar with an airport that used to shut every two hours for a half hour break due to staffing for a while during a summer and there is always a pressure to break schratco.
They never got into the paper though so had to fight it out on their own!
Problem is that the CAA regard any time you are plugged in position, whether talking to aircraft or not, as being on duty and so you cannot say that because nothing happened for half an hour you've had a break.
A lot of pilots and management types often don't understand this fact and find it hard to accept that you're not actually being difficult for the sake of it, you're protecting your licence which is your major source of income.
Often the problem also occurs that when you shut and take your break, you come back to open up again the traffic situation you have to resolve can be very difficult and a lot worse than it would have been if you had broke schratco and continued working anyway.
Catch 22!
The only way it will ever be resolved is to get more controllers but staffing will always be an issue at some of the smaller airfields because the large airfields will always be able to pay more money and poach your staff.
de minimus non curat lex
Just wait until the present numbers reduce due to sickness. Closure will be every two hours.
Dual validations would help resolve this - SRG need to approve suitable ATCOs.
AFIS operate at other HIAL airports for public transport flights - Islay,Tiree - so why not at Stornoway. Get the red tape sorted.
Dual validations would help resolve this - SRG need to approve suitable ATCOs.
AFIS operate at other HIAL airports for public transport flights - Islay,Tiree - so why not at Stornoway. Get the red tape sorted.
More than just an ATCO
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Back in nineteen canteen, the early morning Loganair inbound to Stornoway reported to FIS that he was starting his approach; the Met. observer phoned later to say he'd landed and close the flight plan.
BTW a/c type was Beech 18 IIRC (shows how long ago it was)
BTW a/c type was Beech 18 IIRC (shows how long ago it was)
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Scottish Independence will sort this out. A Scottish CAA may realise that relief breaks needed at places like EGLL/KK etc are rather draconian at quieter airfields. EGPO used to be done by two guys and EGPL by one.....and the pay reflected the hours very nicely thank you. I'm sure that a dispensation/compensation package could be arrived at by all parties....if there is a will to do it.
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Western Isles
Parkfell
Surely the FISO only units are using "discreet" procedures" belonging to Loganair themselves, I know this is changing but AFAIK hasn't fully changed yet. If dual validations were to be used HIAL would initiallyneed to have extra staff to spread them round their units whilst training. If all the latest posts on manning are correct I doubt if they have any extra staff to spread around. Or am I wrong? I'm sure someone from HIAL will put us in the picture.
Surely the FISO only units are using "discreet" procedures" belonging to Loganair themselves, I know this is changing but AFAIK hasn't fully changed yet. If dual validations were to be used HIAL would initiallyneed to have extra staff to spread them round their units whilst training. If all the latest posts on manning are correct I doubt if they have any extra staff to spread around. Or am I wrong? I'm sure someone from HIAL will put us in the picture.
Last edited by Lifes2good; 21st Jan 2007 at 07:24. Reason: addition
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Discrete procedures do not "belong" to the airline.
They are "owned" by HIAL. CAA then approve certain operators to use them.
As to dual validations - should not this process have been in place before the present shortages occurred. What are SRGs views dual airfield validations?
Anyway strategic planning would appear to have failed.
Wait for the excuses to start.
They are "owned" by HIAL. CAA then approve certain operators to use them.
As to dual validations - should not this process have been in place before the present shortages occurred. What are SRGs views dual airfield validations?
Anyway strategic planning would appear to have failed.
Wait for the excuses to start.
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In the old days ....
I definately recall SYY tower being manned by a fireman offering AFISO to help cover ATC Holidays when I was there 20 years ago.
I'm sure everything was 'at your discression....'
I'm sure everything was 'at your discression....'
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055166k
Scottish Independence will sort this out. A Scottish CAA may realise that relief breaks needed at places like EGLL/KK etc are rather draconian at quieter airfields. EGPO used to be done by two guys and EGPL by one.....and the pay reflected the hours very nicely thank you. I'm sure that a dispensation/compensation package could be arrived at by all parties....if there is a will to do it.
Just because EGPO might not have the movements that you demi gods at NERC (or whatever its called this week) handle what gives you the right to suggest that the ATCO doesn't require a break. How do you know that he/she is not the only person on that day, and how long at the desk should they do before a break.
The guys up there are working hard to cope with what is an extremely difficult situation and I'm sure your comments are really welcome.
Scottish Independence will sort this out. A Scottish CAA may realise that relief breaks needed at places like EGLL/KK etc are rather draconian at quieter airfields. EGPO used to be done by two guys and EGPL by one.....and the pay reflected the hours very nicely thank you. I'm sure that a dispensation/compensation package could be arrived at by all parties....if there is a will to do it.
Just because EGPO might not have the movements that you demi gods at NERC (or whatever its called this week) handle what gives you the right to suggest that the ATCO doesn't require a break. How do you know that he/she is not the only person on that day, and how long at the desk should they do before a break.
The guys up there are working hard to cope with what is an extremely difficult situation and I'm sure your comments are really welcome.
niknak
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Parkfell - you clearly have no idea of air traffic control, aviation in general or the type of operation which currently prevails at Stornoway.
Not only schedule airline services but regular charter traffic, all of whom operate IFR but they are all entitled to a full ATC service.
The HIAL airfields which operate FISO only are those which only ever have one IFR movement at any one time, these are the same airfields which company procedures for the airline which are approved by the CAA, which is why, under these specified circumstances.
At other airports which normally have full ATC during the day, FISOs operate after ATC closes, but for emergencies only.
Duel validations are dangerous - as has been clearly demonstarted in the past when an ATCO with such an endorsement mistakenly cleared an aircraft for a procedure, which although valid at his own airfield, put a scheduled aircraft operaing IFR through an active danger area at the other.
You're not a HIAL Senior Manager are you?
Not only schedule airline services but regular charter traffic, all of whom operate IFR but they are all entitled to a full ATC service.
The HIAL airfields which operate FISO only are those which only ever have one IFR movement at any one time, these are the same airfields which company procedures for the airline which are approved by the CAA, which is why, under these specified circumstances.
At other airports which normally have full ATC during the day, FISOs operate after ATC closes, but for emergencies only.
Duel validations are dangerous - as has been clearly demonstarted in the past when an ATCO with such an endorsement mistakenly cleared an aircraft for a procedure, which although valid at his own airfield, put a scheduled aircraft operaing IFR through an active danger area at the other.
You're not a HIAL Senior Manager are you?
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Western Isles
I think niknak has made a very good point, as traffic levels have increased dual validations become more difficult to maintain, for the controller and probably for the rostering of either unit that the controller is working at!
FISO is used for Ambulance and Emergency callouts within HIAL.
In the past I can remember controllers being used at Airfields such as Tiree and Islay(Dual validations in some cases or ATCO/manager). As niknak rightly says they have been replaced at quieter units over the years. If SCRATCOH is to be applied correctly, imagine how many controllers would be needed to run these units if FISO did not provide the on-call requirement? How many controllers would be willing to work at the FISO only units when there is limited traffic?
Don't think Parkfell can be a Senior Manager niknak as if some posts are correct are there any left?
FISO is used for Ambulance and Emergency callouts within HIAL.
In the past I can remember controllers being used at Airfields such as Tiree and Islay(Dual validations in some cases or ATCO/manager). As niknak rightly says they have been replaced at quieter units over the years. If SCRATCOH is to be applied correctly, imagine how many controllers would be needed to run these units if FISO did not provide the on-call requirement? How many controllers would be willing to work at the FISO only units when there is limited traffic?
Don't think Parkfell can be a Senior Manager niknak as if some posts are correct are there any left?
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I'm with 055166k, give the Scots independence. They already have a unique interpretation of some of the rules.
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Of course we could always go back to the old pre SCRATCOH days when as an ATCO I spent 30 out of 32 hours physically at the airfield ( good money bad home life )
I suppose the o/t made up for the 10p per hour on call rate.
AyrTC
I suppose the o/t made up for the 10p per hour on call rate. AyrTC
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That was probably GASUG, which is now at The Museum of Flight at East Fortune. It made me feel my age when visiting East Fortune for the first time last October. Most of the exhibits were flying when I was an "enthusiast" at Turnhouse on the late 60s/70s, eg. GARCX, the Ferranti Meteor!
de minimus non curat lex
Niknak may be interested to know that I know Stornoway quite well, and operate into it on a regular basis - sometimes twice daily in a Saab.
As to ATCO/FISO matters, I have held both UK licences in the past.
You are right in saying FISO could only handle one IFR aircraft at a time. The west coast sector would have to provide a quasi approach function.
The point is that some movement would be better than no movement even if it was one at a time until the manning levels can be restored.
Stornoway find themselves in this pickle due to poor planning.
As to active danger areas - ATCOs make mistakes like everybody else.
As to ATCO/FISO matters, I have held both UK licences in the past.
You are right in saying FISO could only handle one IFR aircraft at a time. The west coast sector would have to provide a quasi approach function.
The point is that some movement would be better than no movement even if it was one at a time until the manning levels can be restored.
Stornoway find themselves in this pickle due to poor planning.
As to active danger areas - ATCOs make mistakes like everybody else.