'Climb and report level...'
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'Climb and report level...'
If I am asked to climb and report level at the new altitude, the conversation usually goes...
ATC: 'G-ABCD, climb and report level FL50'
Me:'Climb and report level FL50, G-ABCD'.
...
Me:'G-ABCD level, FL50'
I was told off for this yesterday - apparently my last call should be 'G-ABCD maintaining FL50'. Is that right? (ditto for descents, I assume).
Tim
ATC: 'G-ABCD, climb and report level FL50'
Me:'Climb and report level FL50, G-ABCD'.
...
Me:'G-ABCD level, FL50'
I was told off for this yesterday - apparently my last call should be 'G-ABCD maintaining FL50'. Is that right? (ditto for descents, I assume).
Tim
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If you check R/T regs I believe you will find that an instruction to 'Climb' is defined as "climb and maintain" (the reverse for 'descend'). Therefore an ATC instruction to 'Climb, report level' should therefore be acknowledged with the fact that you are indeed maintaining the assigned level.
Hope that helps?
Hope that helps?
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Waldorf says
and is right as far as CIVIL/ICAO procedures go... once again inexplicable differences exist between UK Mil and UK Civil phraseology. Tim I believe you often fly speaking to Mil ATC(?)... in which case what the controller said was correct. (as was, I believe, the response you were told to give?)
If you check R/T regs
Sorry to throw another pebble in the pool but shouldn't the response be "Wilco - climb flight level five zero" and then when level "reaching flight level five zero"
Pith helmet donned - need to check CAP 430 (or is it 413 ?)
Pith helmet donned - need to check CAP 430 (or is it 413 ?)
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Pierre Argh,
You are right - well spotted. In fact almost all the controllers I regularly speak to are military - this one was Lyneham as the route yesterday was Benson - Lyneham (NDB app to overshoot) - Benson (ILS).
Tim
You are right - well spotted. In fact almost all the controllers I regularly speak to are military - this one was Lyneham as the route yesterday was Benson - Lyneham (NDB app to overshoot) - Benson (ILS).
Tim
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Fireflybob....
You are taking the pith, I atthume?!!
reaching FLXX is not definitive.... it implies that as yet you have not reached it!! It still does not tell the controller that you are at the level, it means little or nowt to a contriller.
If you were given a climb of say 15000 feet, when would you say you were 'reaching' your level? 200' to go, 500', 1000'??
'Reaching' is one of those annoying phrases that airline pilots who are given a climb to an intermediate level like to use to try to get continuous climb. I usually answer with the phrase "I do have a RADAR, thank you very much" if I have the time. Particularly Iberia pilots from EGLL I have noticed
Wilco is not needed as a full readback of the climb instruction is required (mandatory readback). Wilco is used for request/instructions that do not have a safety implication and do not need a mandatory readback. For example a male pilot is being controlled by his ATCO wife... it could go like this...
"Tower, could you please make sure my dinner is ready when I get back"
"Wilco (mutter mutter mutter)"
You are taking the pith, I atthume?!!
reaching FLXX is not definitive.... it implies that as yet you have not reached it!! It still does not tell the controller that you are at the level, it means little or nowt to a contriller.
If you were given a climb of say 15000 feet, when would you say you were 'reaching' your level? 200' to go, 500', 1000'??
'Reaching' is one of those annoying phrases that airline pilots who are given a climb to an intermediate level like to use to try to get continuous climb. I usually answer with the phrase "I do have a RADAR, thank you very much" if I have the time. Particularly Iberia pilots from EGLL I have noticed
Wilco is not needed as a full readback of the climb instruction is required (mandatory readback). Wilco is used for request/instructions that do not have a safety implication and do not need a mandatory readback. For example a male pilot is being controlled by his ATCO wife... it could go like this...
"Tower, could you please make sure my dinner is ready when I get back"
"Wilco (mutter mutter mutter)"
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Mil Phraseology:
ATC: Callsign, Climb and report Level FL 50
A/C: Climb and report level FL50, Callsign
On reaching:
A/C: Callsign, Level FL50.
ATC: Callsign, Roger
Civil Phraseology:
ATC: Callsign, Climb FL50
A/C: Climb FL50, Callsign
No requirement to call level
OR
ATC: Callsign, Climb FL50, report reaching
A/C: Climb FL50, wilco, Callsign.
When level:
A/C: Callsign, maintaining FL50
ATC: Callsign, Roger.
(Note that in Civil Phraseology, although the phrase "Climb and Maintain XXXX" is in common use, it is NOT standard phraseology. "Maintain" should only be used to refer to level flight.)
ATC: Callsign, Climb and report Level FL 50
A/C: Climb and report level FL50, Callsign
On reaching:
A/C: Callsign, Level FL50.
ATC: Callsign, Roger
Civil Phraseology:
ATC: Callsign, Climb FL50
A/C: Climb FL50, Callsign
No requirement to call level
OR
ATC: Callsign, Climb FL50, report reaching
A/C: Climb FL50, wilco, Callsign.
When level:
A/C: Callsign, maintaining FL50
ATC: Callsign, Roger.
(Note that in Civil Phraseology, although the phrase "Climb and Maintain XXXX" is in common use, it is NOT standard phraseology. "Maintain" should only be used to refer to level flight.)
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Ops and Mops
To imply that Mil phraseology requires you to report level is incorrect. If asked, you report it, if not you dont. We can see when you are level at the new level by seeing 3 sweeps of +/- 200 feet. The use of report level by the controller is optional in a SSR environment.
Didley Dee
To imply that Mil phraseology requires you to report level is incorrect. If asked, you report it, if not you dont. We can see when you are level at the new level by seeing 3 sweeps of +/- 200 feet. The use of report level by the controller is optional in a SSR environment.
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Diddley Dee
I believe my example of Mil phraseology was:
Therefore the pilot was requested to report level.....
If the Mil controller used the phraseology "Climb FL50" the clearly the pilot is not required to report level!!!
However at Military Terminal units, the former example of phraseology is the most commonly used, therefore it was used as my primary example!
I believe my example of Mil phraseology was:
ATC: Callsign, Climb and report Level FL 50
A/C: Climb and report level FL50, Callsign
On reaching:
A/C: Callsign, Level FL50.
ATC: Callsign, Roger
A/C: Climb and report level FL50, Callsign
On reaching:
A/C: Callsign, Level FL50.
ATC: Callsign, Roger
If the Mil controller used the phraseology "Climb FL50" the clearly the pilot is not required to report level!!!
However at Military Terminal units, the former example of phraseology is the most commonly used, therefore it was used as my primary example!
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Dont know why the ....?????
Your example in that case, was confusing. Why differenciate between Mil & Civil giving examples for Civil where reporting level is required & where it is not, yet for the Mil Phraseology just stating the phraseology with a requirement to report level.
IMHO it should have been clearer if you are trying to demonstrate something. If I am the only one that misinterperated your point I apologise....
Diddley Dee
....?????Your example in that case, was confusing. Why differenciate between Mil & Civil giving examples for Civil where reporting level is required & where it is not, yet for the Mil Phraseology just stating the phraseology with a requirement to report level.
IMHO it should have been clearer if you are trying to demonstrate something. If I am the only one that misinterperated your point I apologise....
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The is because I feel that you are being overly pedandtic!
Tim asked the question using a specific piece of phraseology. This was identified as being given by a military controller. His instructor however, was correcting him using civilian phraseology.
Within the bounds of Tim's scenario the military phraseology example and the required response was all that was needed to indicate the correct phraseology. The civilian phraseology was included to show where Tim's instructor (who may use various versions in his "day job") may be coming from.
If you want me to conduct a CATCS lesson in phraseology to answer a simple question then fair enough....
is because I feel that you are being overly pedandtic!Tim asked the question using a specific piece of phraseology. This was identified as being given by a military controller. His instructor however, was correcting him using civilian phraseology.
Within the bounds of Tim's scenario the military phraseology example and the required response was all that was needed to indicate the correct phraseology. The civilian phraseology was included to show where Tim's instructor (who may use various versions in his "day job") may be coming from.
If you want me to conduct a CATCS lesson in phraseology to answer a simple question then fair enough....
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Thanks for the kind offer of your undoubted wisdom but I will decline, I thought I had apologised if I had misunderstood your point.... Dont fret, you shouldnt feel that a misunderstanding obligates you to conduct a lesson.
Off to go flying now so please dont bother replying for my benefit.
Diddley Dee
Off to go flying now so please dont bother replying for my benefit.
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With regards the use of "wilco" - could the pilot not state the following..........
"Climb FL50, wilco, G-ABCD"
Another point - surely "climb and report level FL 50" could be misunderstood to mean climb FL50 and report your present level? I understand that the word "your" is omitted, but still I don't like the phrase. Surely "Climb FL50 and report reaching" would be better. Yes "reaching" is listed in CAP413. Or "Climb FL50 and report maintaining" - maybe this is the best!
"Climb FL50, wilco, G-ABCD"
Another point - surely "climb and report level FL 50" could be misunderstood to mean climb FL50 and report your present level? I understand that the word "your" is omitted, but still I don't like the phrase. Surely "Climb FL50 and report reaching" would be better. Yes "reaching" is listed in CAP413. Or "Climb FL50 and report maintaining" - maybe this is the best!
