Late confirmation of Landing Runway
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Late confirmation of Landing Runway
This may well have already been covered - if so, apologies for going over old ground.
Seems to me a common problem at some continental destinations, particularly MUC and FRA.Why is it that the ATIS doesn't specify the landing runway? A common one is "Landing 26L/26R" What's the point of an ATIS if it doesn't tell you one of the most important bits of info you need as FC? This has always puzzled me..........Naturally, when going to such destinations, we put the other appch into the secondary flight plan in the box of tricks to minimise the workload should we get the 50:50 wrong. But if the WX's bad and other factors conspire to give a higher than normal workload, the last thing we need is the uncertainty of not knowing in sufficient time, which bit of tarmac we're aiming for! Often, the MAPs and minima are quite different...
Another gripe is when the ATIS says one rwy and then at about 10-15 track miles you are advised of a different rwy for ldg - again, what is the point of an ATIS?
I am hoping for enlightenment..................................Regards, Sid
Seems to me a common problem at some continental destinations, particularly MUC and FRA.Why is it that the ATIS doesn't specify the landing runway? A common one is "Landing 26L/26R" What's the point of an ATIS if it doesn't tell you one of the most important bits of info you need as FC? This has always puzzled me..........Naturally, when going to such destinations, we put the other appch into the secondary flight plan in the box of tricks to minimise the workload should we get the 50:50 wrong. But if the WX's bad and other factors conspire to give a higher than normal workload, the last thing we need is the uncertainty of not knowing in sufficient time, which bit of tarmac we're aiming for! Often, the MAPs and minima are quite different...
Another gripe is when the ATIS says one rwy and then at about 10-15 track miles you are advised of a different rwy for ldg - again, what is the point of an ATIS?
I am hoping for enlightenment..................................Regards, Sid
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In Toronto this happens all the time and some of the pilots get quite ****ed off about it. 9 times out of 10 I can assure you there is a legit reason. And quite often it is to help you (and us)
First point about the ATIS...if you are landing at an airport with multiple runways then it has the landing runway.s on the atis. Can't just broadcast one if you are landing on two. Then at least as Sid says you can program in both for the 50/50 chance. The ATIS though dosen't have the flow rate and the traffic picture at the point you are entering terminal airspace so all it is supposed to do is give you the options of where you are going to land. The ATIS is giving you the rough idea but it isn't a real time definite. It also dosen't tell you what is going on in the bit of airspace you are about to land in. Problem with a multiple runway airport really I suppose because it means there are multiple reasons why a runway will be changed on you.
At YYZ the runway designation normally depends on the direction you come into Toronto...if we are on the 23/24s traffic from the West and South receives 24R and traffic from the North and North East receives 23. The Enroute sectors into the terminal area will inform the aircraft of this designation well over a hundred miles out. However if there are too many aircraft coming into the terminal area all at once then you have to balance the runway loading. So although you may have been told 24R and have it dialled in...all of a sudden you have become that one aircraft too many and have to be changed to 23. On YYZ terminal we try and do this by 30 miles from touch down to at least give the pilot a fighting chance to program in whatever and check their minima. If (as often happens in YYZ) you end up with too many aircraft on the one runway then you end up flying a lot of extra miles staying up extra high and ending up on a 35 mile final. By doing the "inconvenience" of a late runway change in this instance we actually are getting you on the ground sooner and not clogging up the airspace. We try never to change the runway at 10-15 track miles but if we do it will always be for a good reason..ie birdstrike at airport, slow traffic ahead, pilot cocked up in front of you (and yes that happens....let us know if you want to slow down ahead of time!) too many heavies intermingled with lights and mediums, weather on final..and again the most common in Toronto...too many aircraft in the one small bit of sky. All controllers here will give you the reason and the localiser frequency straight away. We all appreciate the inconvenience to the pilot but the options are nil..unfortunately.
Another case of runway changes is that some aircraft request a certain runway (which you are all entitled to do) to speed up the ground taxi. We again try to be as balanced as possible but if an aircraft requests a non conforming runway for operational safety reasons..ie length then we may have to change runways at the last minute on other aircraft to make space for the non conformer. At YYZ we only do this if it dosen't have a huge knock on effect and normally we can swap other carriers to a runway that is better for their taxi. Some pilots expect this...the ones that don't query..but are always told..it will help your taxi.
Emergency traffic always gets their choice of runway so again if they pick a REAL non conformer then we have to make sure they are safe from the other aircraft coming in to land. That often means aircraft having to slide across from one runway to another..or being switched on first contact. I would expect a fair amount of understanding in this case.
Wind changes. This one is common and you don't normally get any complaint by the aircrew for this.
It is always a balancing act to be as expeditious as possible, and be as fair to the aircrew as possible. If you want to know why your runway has been changed last minute then ask the controller (if he/she hasn't already said)...It will normally be for a quite legitimate reason.
It is another case for fam visits for pilots to visit ATC at airports with multiple runways (not many in UK unfortunately). At peak times in YYZ we change runways on a regular basis...but the pilot could see why we are doing it.
Hope this gives you some idea. At YYZ anyway. The reasons above are interchangeable I am sure with other airports.
First point about the ATIS...if you are landing at an airport with multiple runways then it has the landing runway.s on the atis. Can't just broadcast one if you are landing on two. Then at least as Sid says you can program in both for the 50/50 chance. The ATIS though dosen't have the flow rate and the traffic picture at the point you are entering terminal airspace so all it is supposed to do is give you the options of where you are going to land. The ATIS is giving you the rough idea but it isn't a real time definite. It also dosen't tell you what is going on in the bit of airspace you are about to land in. Problem with a multiple runway airport really I suppose because it means there are multiple reasons why a runway will be changed on you.
At YYZ the runway designation normally depends on the direction you come into Toronto...if we are on the 23/24s traffic from the West and South receives 24R and traffic from the North and North East receives 23. The Enroute sectors into the terminal area will inform the aircraft of this designation well over a hundred miles out. However if there are too many aircraft coming into the terminal area all at once then you have to balance the runway loading. So although you may have been told 24R and have it dialled in...all of a sudden you have become that one aircraft too many and have to be changed to 23. On YYZ terminal we try and do this by 30 miles from touch down to at least give the pilot a fighting chance to program in whatever and check their minima. If (as often happens in YYZ) you end up with too many aircraft on the one runway then you end up flying a lot of extra miles staying up extra high and ending up on a 35 mile final. By doing the "inconvenience" of a late runway change in this instance we actually are getting you on the ground sooner and not clogging up the airspace. We try never to change the runway at 10-15 track miles but if we do it will always be for a good reason..ie birdstrike at airport, slow traffic ahead, pilot cocked up in front of you (and yes that happens....let us know if you want to slow down ahead of time!) too many heavies intermingled with lights and mediums, weather on final..and again the most common in Toronto...too many aircraft in the one small bit of sky. All controllers here will give you the reason and the localiser frequency straight away. We all appreciate the inconvenience to the pilot but the options are nil..unfortunately.
Another case of runway changes is that some aircraft request a certain runway (which you are all entitled to do) to speed up the ground taxi. We again try to be as balanced as possible but if an aircraft requests a non conforming runway for operational safety reasons..ie length then we may have to change runways at the last minute on other aircraft to make space for the non conformer. At YYZ we only do this if it dosen't have a huge knock on effect and normally we can swap other carriers to a runway that is better for their taxi. Some pilots expect this...the ones that don't query..but are always told..it will help your taxi.
Emergency traffic always gets their choice of runway so again if they pick a REAL non conformer then we have to make sure they are safe from the other aircraft coming in to land. That often means aircraft having to slide across from one runway to another..or being switched on first contact. I would expect a fair amount of understanding in this case.
Wind changes. This one is common and you don't normally get any complaint by the aircrew for this.
It is always a balancing act to be as expeditious as possible, and be as fair to the aircrew as possible. If you want to know why your runway has been changed last minute then ask the controller (if he/she hasn't already said)...It will normally be for a quite legitimate reason.
It is another case for fam visits for pilots to visit ATC at airports with multiple runways (not many in UK unfortunately). At peak times in YYZ we change runways on a regular basis...but the pilot could see why we are doing it.
Hope this gives you some idea. At YYZ anyway. The reasons above are interchangeable I am sure with other airports.
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Sid - at FFM they will normally tell you 'downwind' and IIRC the brief is not too different? Maybe the freq, runway and g/a. 'Regular' users cover both in the brief. The worst was 25'C' was it? The short thing in the middle of 25L. I think they forgot that idea
Worst I had was to be told at BRU I was to fly a VOR/DME onto a runway at 15 miles final, having briefed the ATIS ILS. Someone needed a brain transplant................
You are fortunate to be able to load an alternate approach. Not everyone has that luxury!
Worst I had was to be told at BRU I was to fly a VOR/DME onto a runway at 15 miles final, having briefed the ATIS ILS. Someone needed a brain transplant................
You are fortunate to be able to load an alternate approach. Not everyone has that luxury!
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MAC - thanks for the very helpful and informative post. A question for you - LHR is multiple runways and my home base - I've yet to have a rwy change and don't hear that many going on. Is not the London TMA pretty busy too? How do the London controllers manage to minimise these rwy changes?
I am not in any way implying that you guys and gals in Canada are less competent - I'm just curious to know how some busy places have far less in the way of changes.
As far as I'm aware, the LHR Atis invariably specifies ONE landing rwy!!!
BOAC - YES of course, we, as regular users, cover both appches in the brief.
I am not in any way implying that you guys and gals in Canada are less competent - I'm just curious to know how some busy places have far less in the way of changes.
As far as I'm aware, the LHR Atis invariably specifies ONE landing rwy!!!
BOAC - YES of course, we, as regular users, cover both appches in the brief.
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Sid,
At heathrow there is only ever one landing runway at any one time. What the guys above are talking about and they can correct me if I'm wrong is when there are simultaneous landings on different runways
At heathrow there is only ever one landing runway at any one time. What the guys above are talking about and they can correct me if I'm wrong is when there are simultaneous landings on different runways
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Just to expand on this, although Heathrow only ever has one duty landing runway (the one that goes out on the ATIS), there are times when simultaneous landings occur on both runways, most significantly 0600L-0700L, and at other times when the inbound delays are high.
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Sid
As far as I am aware at Heathrow the operation is land one runway and depart the other with the odd time as foghorn says that there are simultaneous arrivals. The ATIS info will in this case be the designated landing runway.
If there were arrivals on both runways all day long the delays to departure traffic would be too long. I believe the simulaneous arrivals are only to alleviate some of the backup in the TMA. The changes are minimalised because flow is a lot tighter (only one runway to land on) and when an aircraft is given a change there is a lot more time to do it...ie in the holds or on initial approach.
Toronto has 5 runways...and a peak operation is called a triple ..Land 2. depart one. Land 23-Spacing 5 miles. Depart 24R , Land 24L spacing 3 miles.
The ATIS will give the two landing runways but as I said before we can't always fit the aircraft in where they are initially told.
Unlike Heathrow, Toronto also has a straight in fix so you have aircraft coming in from all 4 directions they don't hold here like they do in the London TMA (they are sequenced to come in 10 miles apart). Peak rate is about 60 an hour in the triple operation and it can be tough to judge the balance on each particular runway. Then as I said in my previous post aircraft have to go where they fit.
I would prefer the Heathrow operation at times as it is easier to regulate but then again I am sure Heathrow would love extra runways....and then you would have the same problems that you experience elsewhere.
As far as I am aware at Heathrow the operation is land one runway and depart the other with the odd time as foghorn says that there are simultaneous arrivals. The ATIS info will in this case be the designated landing runway.
If there were arrivals on both runways all day long the delays to departure traffic would be too long. I believe the simulaneous arrivals are only to alleviate some of the backup in the TMA. The changes are minimalised because flow is a lot tighter (only one runway to land on) and when an aircraft is given a change there is a lot more time to do it...ie in the holds or on initial approach.
Toronto has 5 runways...and a peak operation is called a triple ..Land 2. depart one. Land 23-Spacing 5 miles. Depart 24R , Land 24L spacing 3 miles.
The ATIS will give the two landing runways but as I said before we can't always fit the aircraft in where they are initially told.
Unlike Heathrow, Toronto also has a straight in fix so you have aircraft coming in from all 4 directions they don't hold here like they do in the London TMA (they are sequenced to come in 10 miles apart). Peak rate is about 60 an hour in the triple operation and it can be tough to judge the balance on each particular runway. Then as I said in my previous post aircraft have to go where they fit.
I would prefer the Heathrow operation at times as it is easier to regulate but then again I am sure Heathrow would love extra runways....and then you would have the same problems that you experience elsewhere.
ATIS and Landing Runways
DFW the other day was giving (if I remember correctly):
36L 35C 35R 31R
We planned on 35C and got 31R and the subsequent taxi was about the distance of the M4 spur road junction to T4.
Nevertheless flexibility was briefed and the runway change/crosscheck and brief took no more than a minute.
36L 35C 35R 31R
We planned on 35C and got 31R and the subsequent taxi was about the distance of the M4 spur road junction to T4.
Nevertheless flexibility was briefed and the runway change/crosscheck and brief took no more than a minute.
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FRA and MUC are both hub airports with enormous traffic peaks (rather waves) either on arrivals or departures. So all runways are needed to get flights down first, thereafter up.
In FRA there is a slightly lower separation minima when flights approach staggered 25R - 25L. MUC runways are authorized for full independant and simultaneous operations. Heathrow operations are much more constant flow, the single runway assignment is due to noise abatement regulations, though, afai remember.
In FRA there is a slightly lower separation minima when flights approach staggered 25R - 25L. MUC runways are authorized for full independant and simultaneous operations. Heathrow operations are much more constant flow, the single runway assignment is due to noise abatement regulations, though, afai remember.
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DFW the other day was giving (if I remember correctly):
36L 35C 35R 31R
We planned on 35C and got 31R and the subsequent taxi was about the distance of the M4 spur road junction to T4.
Nevertheless flexibility was briefed and the runway change/crosscheck and brief took no more than a minute.
36L 35C 35R 31R
We planned on 35C and got 31R and the subsequent taxi was about the distance of the M4 spur road junction to T4.
Nevertheless flexibility was briefed and the runway change/crosscheck and brief took no more than a minute.
You beat me to it <G>. There are places with a lot more than one runway for landing and to get the most through put in the system you have to be flexible to go to any of the runways. Being that I am old <G>, I remember before FMS was widespread and this wasn't an issue. So I look at this as not so much as an ATC issue as one of the manufacturers once again not taking into account how the system actually works and plan for the computer human interface to work that way...
regards
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to add a general rule for MUC/EDDM.
If you are coming from the North (ROKIL/LANDU) you will get the 08L/26R most of the time, especially during inbound peaks. Same for the south (BETOS/NAPSA => 08R/26L). We are switching the RWY only in case of a lot of departures waiting at one RWY, or if there are only inbounds from one side - and on request of course (depending on parking position)
Saigor
If you are coming from the North (ROKIL/LANDU) you will get the 08L/26R most of the time, especially during inbound peaks. Same for the south (BETOS/NAPSA => 08R/26L). We are switching the RWY only in case of a lot of departures waiting at one RWY, or if there are only inbounds from one side - and on request of course (depending on parking position)
Saigor
