Question for US controllers...
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Question for US controllers...
Any FAA controller out there with a few spare minutes....here are a few questions I've been wondering about....I am a pilot but I completed the CTI training in ATC, so I know a little bit about the ATC world. (very little)
1. Is there anything in 7110.65 referring to a "long landing"? I am asking because at the university I work at, we normally ask tower if we can do a "long landing" in a C172. I can understand the value of this information for the tower controller in terms of spacing. However in a few instances some instructors were "yelled at" for not making the request. Now, even though asking for a long landing is common at this airport, I still see it as "COURTESY call" given to the controller in an effort to make everyone's life easier. I don't see it as a REQUIRED call.... in other words I don't think I can get violated for not asking for a long landing and still use up 7000+ feet of runway in a C-172. My understanding of 7110.65 is that if I have a clearance to land, without any LAHSO ops, I CAN use the FULL rwy length as listed in the Airport Facility Directory. Am I right?
2. If I am cleared to land VFR aircraft #1, say on a downwind abeam the landing theshold, is there any rule as to the width of the pattern I have to fly? Again, same situation as above, if I want to get a "short approach" I normally inform the controller about my request. But if I already have a landing clearance as #1, shouldn't I be able to execute a short approach WITHOUT asking permission?
3. If I am flying VFR in class E, say at 11,500' above a class B (or in any other place for that matter), and are receiving flight following, can the controller give me control instructions? For example can he say "TURN LEFT HDG....."??? Or can he only point out traffic (and other safety advisories) and maybe "suggest" a heading?
Here is a situation that happened to me last month. VFR enroute over PHX class B, to avoid all the vectoring (and the hassle for the PHX controllers) I climbed to 10,500 VFR ABOVE class B. In this way I was hoping to avoid getting vectored all over the place by PHX approach. I still wanted flt following so I requested the handoff from center to PHX approach. Despite being VFR and ABOVE his airspace, the approach controller vectored me to about 60deg off my on-course heading. Don't get me wrong, I don't resent getting vectored, I am sure he had a good reason for it and wasn't just giving me "vectors for controller's amusement". But he did evetually forget about me after a traffic conflict was no longer a factor and left me on that hdg for several minutes (he was busy, and I was just a VFR cessna). No big deal. But my question is: did he have control authority over me even though I was outside of his airspace (class B)??? Was I required to comply with his instructions? What would have prevented my from just cancelling VFR flight following, squawking 1200, turning off the radio and GPS-direct to my destination (apart from common sense!)?
Thank you for your answers in advance!
Palgia
1. Is there anything in 7110.65 referring to a "long landing"? I am asking because at the university I work at, we normally ask tower if we can do a "long landing" in a C172. I can understand the value of this information for the tower controller in terms of spacing. However in a few instances some instructors were "yelled at" for not making the request. Now, even though asking for a long landing is common at this airport, I still see it as "COURTESY call" given to the controller in an effort to make everyone's life easier. I don't see it as a REQUIRED call.... in other words I don't think I can get violated for not asking for a long landing and still use up 7000+ feet of runway in a C-172. My understanding of 7110.65 is that if I have a clearance to land, without any LAHSO ops, I CAN use the FULL rwy length as listed in the Airport Facility Directory. Am I right?
2. If I am cleared to land VFR aircraft #1, say on a downwind abeam the landing theshold, is there any rule as to the width of the pattern I have to fly? Again, same situation as above, if I want to get a "short approach" I normally inform the controller about my request. But if I already have a landing clearance as #1, shouldn't I be able to execute a short approach WITHOUT asking permission?
3. If I am flying VFR in class E, say at 11,500' above a class B (or in any other place for that matter), and are receiving flight following, can the controller give me control instructions? For example can he say "TURN LEFT HDG....."??? Or can he only point out traffic (and other safety advisories) and maybe "suggest" a heading?
Here is a situation that happened to me last month. VFR enroute over PHX class B, to avoid all the vectoring (and the hassle for the PHX controllers) I climbed to 10,500 VFR ABOVE class B. In this way I was hoping to avoid getting vectored all over the place by PHX approach. I still wanted flt following so I requested the handoff from center to PHX approach. Despite being VFR and ABOVE his airspace, the approach controller vectored me to about 60deg off my on-course heading. Don't get me wrong, I don't resent getting vectored, I am sure he had a good reason for it and wasn't just giving me "vectors for controller's amusement". But he did evetually forget about me after a traffic conflict was no longer a factor and left me on that hdg for several minutes (he was busy, and I was just a VFR cessna). No big deal. But my question is: did he have control authority over me even though I was outside of his airspace (class B)??? Was I required to comply with his instructions? What would have prevented my from just cancelling VFR flight following, squawking 1200, turning off the radio and GPS-direct to my destination (apart from common sense!)?
Thank you for your answers in advance!
Palgia
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Fort Worth ARTCC ZFW
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You're right, when cleared to land the whole runway is indeed yours. HOWEVER <G>, you may take note where the FAA considers the normal portion of where you are supposed to touch down. For part 121 folks it is mandatory that you land within the prescribed part of the runway (can't remember the distance off hand and am to lazy to look it up right now <G>.) or make a go around. Controllers are basing aircraft landing behind you on you landing on the first part of the runway and considering your type aircraft where you will turn off. If you float down the runway so that you don't have to taxi so far later, could completely throw off the kingair or bizjet coming in behind you... There is a method to our madness, but as to your question, no you won't find it in the 7110.65 but then as in many things in aviation, you aren't going to find all the answers in one book...
regards
Scott
regards
Scott
Join Date: Jul 2002
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palgia
I'm in my 26th year of ATC, and even without Scott's kind answer I think you knew the answers already. Therefore, I won't belabor the points:
1. We're all just trying to make the most effecient use of the runway. It only makes sense to let each other in on the plan. It can save go-arounds, and worse.
2. See #1. You're the guy going around because of the other guy landing long. Or worse.
3. I'm going to bed. Really.
Dave
I'm in my 26th year of ATC, and even without Scott's kind answer I think you knew the answers already. Therefore, I won't belabor the points:
1. We're all just trying to make the most effecient use of the runway. It only makes sense to let each other in on the plan. It can save go-arounds, and worse.
2. See #1. You're the guy going around because of the other guy landing long. Or worse.
3. I'm going to bed. Really.
Dave
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ill answer your third question, yes.
the above paragaph states aircraft operating the the system, it dosnt say anything about ifr/vfr.if you are on FF you put your self in the system and the controller can vector or give alt restriction to seperate aircraft.
2-1-1. ATC SERVICE
The primary purpose of the ATC system is to prevent a collision between aircraft operating in the system and to organize and expedite the flow of traffic.
The primary purpose of the ATC system is to prevent a collision between aircraft operating in the system and to organize and expedite the flow of traffic.
the above paragaph states aircraft operating the the system, it dosnt say anything about ifr/vfr.if you are on FF you put your self in the system and the controller can vector or give alt restriction to seperate aircraft.
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...the above paragaph states aircraft operating the the system, it dosnt say anything about ifr/vfr.if you are on FF you put your self in the system and the controller can vector or give alt restriction to seperate aircraft...
This might result in the ATC needing to move the 'more important' traffic and submitting some paperwork for FAA review; but the important thing in this example is your mode C is verified and they could just use vertical; even if you were delaying climb/descent.
