Upper age limit gone?
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Upper age limit gone?
I notice since the new rules that came into effect on 1st October the upper age limt has been removed from the NATS recruitment site. Might be some good news for people who thought they were too old.
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I heard that there are loads of people 40+ applying from all walks of life - its a classic mid-life crisis syndrome... reflect on the past, remember that when you were a kid you wanted to be an airline pilot then apply for the next best thing.
Does anyone seriously believe that a 45 year old, with no controlling experience could learn the skills needed to validate on the West End?
Does anyone seriously believe that a 45 year old, with no controlling experience could learn the skills needed to validate on the West End?
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Its probably got something to do with the new age descrimination laws coming in to force.
Employers won't be able to decriminate based on age. Doesn't mean they won't be weeded out by other ways.
Employers won't be able to decriminate based on age. Doesn't mean they won't be weeded out by other ways.
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I applied a few weeks ago before the legislation came into effect. At that time, there was no age limit specified on the recruitment site. That may have been foresight by NATS.
Obviously I'm not in a position to judge, but I don't see how age should be a deciding factor. The factors should be; ability to do the job, dedication to the cause, suitability for the working conditions. The only time that age should be considered is to decide if it is worth investing thousands of pounds in someone given their time until retirement.
If there are those in the organisation that want to "weed out" the oldies, then I hope my 28 years of existence aren't too many.
Obviously I'm not in a position to judge, but I don't see how age should be a deciding factor. The factors should be; ability to do the job, dedication to the cause, suitability for the working conditions. The only time that age should be considered is to decide if it is worth investing thousands of pounds in someone given their time until retirement.
If there are those in the organisation that want to "weed out" the oldies, then I hope my 28 years of existence aren't too many.
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Martin in the Middle
Given the "impressive" numbers of "young uns" that are validating at present (sarcasm) I am surprised you would think that a 45 year old would have no chance on the busier sectors.
From where I see it a 45 year old with no experience is the same as a 25 year old with no experience. Maybe a little less brash!
If it improves the numbers validating...then I see no problem.
Given the "impressive" numbers of "young uns" that are validating at present (sarcasm) I am surprised you would think that a 45 year old would have no chance on the busier sectors.
From where I see it a 45 year old with no experience is the same as a 25 year old with no experience. Maybe a little less brash!
If it improves the numbers validating...then I see no problem.
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Yes, but will NATS invest however many tens of thousands of pounds in a 45 year old and get less than 10 years out of them before they maybe retire?
I once heard that it takes at least 10 years of being fully valid to earn back what the company spent on your training?
As I'm just over 10 years valid I'm at last in credit. Phew
I once heard that it takes at least 10 years of being fully valid to earn back what the company spent on your training?
As I'm just over 10 years valid I'm at last in credit. Phew
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I heard that there are loads of people 40+ applying from all walks of life - its a classic mid-life crisis syndrome... reflect on the past, remember that when you were a kid you wanted to be an airline pilot then apply for the next best thing.
Does anyone seriously believe that a 45 year old, with no controlling experience could learn the skills needed to validate on the West End?
Does anyone seriously believe that a 45 year old, with no controlling experience could learn the skills needed to validate on the West End?
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atcomarkingtime,
Things might change in the future, but you cannot select prospective ATCOs on the basis that they probably couldn't hack it at LACC or EGLL, but would be ok at Southampton Tower or Farnborough Tower, no disrespect to those units of course.
What happens if a whole course of 52 trainees are recruited that way? EGLF and EGHI get twenty each?
There is a mass of statistical evidence to prove that those over the age of 30 are less flexible when faced with learning new skills, adapting to new environments etc etc than those under 30. Of course, there are always the exceptions before anyone jumps in. That's why the age limit was there in the first place.
Things might change in the future, but you cannot select prospective ATCOs on the basis that they probably couldn't hack it at LACC or EGLL, but would be ok at Southampton Tower or Farnborough Tower, no disrespect to those units of course.
What happens if a whole course of 52 trainees are recruited that way? EGLF and EGHI get twenty each?
There is a mass of statistical evidence to prove that those over the age of 30 are less flexible when faced with learning new skills, adapting to new environments etc etc than those under 30. Of course, there are always the exceptions before anyone jumps in. That's why the age limit was there in the first place.
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I suppose that's why a lot of companies employ older workers.More reliable,often keener with great experience,and often take less sickies.
It's interesting that LACC and LL had a hidden policy that over 40 and you were past it,regardless of ability or experience.
Is that still the case since it's now illegal? Or will they just carry on but disguise it as something else?
Better shuffle off now on my mobile commode,and get ready for the shroud.
It's interesting that LACC and LL had a hidden policy that over 40 and you were past it,regardless of ability or experience.
Is that still the case since it's now illegal? Or will they just carry on but disguise it as something else?
Better shuffle off now on my mobile commode,and get ready for the shroud.
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Dyce,
Please educate me as to this hidden policy regarding over 40s at LL.
In the 7 and a half years I've been here I have seen no evidence of it. Perhaps it's so hidden nobody knows?
Please educate me as to this hidden policy regarding over 40s at LL.
In the 7 and a half years I've been here I have seen no evidence of it. Perhaps it's so hidden nobody knows?
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Gonzo
I don't often disagree with you..but I have to just once.
A lot has been said on various threads recently about the poor checkout rate that NATS has at various units. That checkout rate is with the age limit being set as it is now.
I also still don't understand the difference between a new "young" atco or a new "old" atco. The environment is new to both and they have to adapt accordingly. Why would a 20 year old who is fresh out of school with no experience of anything else be more adaptable than someone who has a bit of life experience.
If we are saying that someone over 40 "can't hack it" than there are a lot of unsafe controllers out there.
PS I am 31
I don't often disagree with you..but I have to just once.
A lot has been said on various threads recently about the poor checkout rate that NATS has at various units. That checkout rate is with the age limit being set as it is now.
I also still don't understand the difference between a new "young" atco or a new "old" atco. The environment is new to both and they have to adapt accordingly. Why would a 20 year old who is fresh out of school with no experience of anything else be more adaptable than someone who has a bit of life experience.
If we are saying that someone over 40 "can't hack it" than there are a lot of unsafe controllers out there.
PS I am 31
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Those who fail are 'passed' onto other units and go with the stigma of having failed at a unit.
Maybe NATS should look at a more inclusive policy, that way people may not be made to feel like failures if they don't make it at the aforementioned units.
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Married a Canadian,
Correct, but IMHO has nothing whatsoever to do with the age of recruits. It has to do with the cut in training time and content. Before the change to the 'new style' courses, we had an even lower upper age limit (it was 27 when I applied) and the validation rate was fine.
The statistical difference between a new 'young' ATCO and a new 'old' ATCO is huge. Yes they both have to adapt. That's the point, on average, the 'young' ATCO will adapt far quicker than the 'old' one. The 'young' ATCO is far more receptive to new ideas, is at his/her physical and mental peak....I could go on. Now, yes, in some cases prior experience mitigates this for the 'old' ATCO, but we're talking generally here.
No, I'm not saying, as you well know!
In fact, you prove my point. 40 year old ATCOs have, what, 10-20 years of ATC experience and knowledge to call upon to compensate for their diminishing mental capacity, so their overall ability does not decrease. Ask someone to start from scratch in ATC at 40 years old and a very high proportion would struggle.
A lot has been said on various threads recently about the poor checkout rate that NATS has at various units. That checkout rate is with the age limit being set as it is now.
I also still don't understand the difference between a new "young" atco or a new "old" atco. The environment is new to both and they have to adapt accordingly. Why would a 20 year old who is fresh out of school with no experience of anything else be more adaptable than someone who has a bit of life experience.
If we are saying that someone over 40 "can't hack it" than there are a lot of unsafe controllers out there.
No, I'm not saying, as you well know!
In fact, you prove my point. 40 year old ATCOs have, what, 10-20 years of ATC experience and knowledge to call upon to compensate for their diminishing mental capacity, so their overall ability does not decrease. Ask someone to start from scratch in ATC at 40 years old and a very high proportion would struggle.
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Ask someone to start from scratch in ATC at 40 years old and a very high proportion would struggle.
It would be madness both practically and commercially to even consider them for training. You just don't take things on board as quickly and as thoroughly as you used to. (I used to think that was rubbish.......unfortunately you find out it's not).
Same applies when teaching people over the age of 40 to fly. They take considerably longer to train and if it wasn't for the fact that they ARE PAYING FOR THEIR TRAINING most of them would be "chopped". There are always a few exceptions of course, but they are very few and far between.
However there is some good news though, that being under the new legislation you are no longer able to call me an "Old Tosser".......... the use of the word "Old" is no longer acceptable
Regards
FBW
Last edited by Flybywyre; 6th Oct 2006 at 20:09.
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40 year old ATCOs have, what, 10-20 years of ATC experience and knowledge to call upon to compensate for their diminishing mental capacity, so their overall ability does not decrease. Ask someone to start from scratch in ATC at 40 years old and a very high proportion would struggle.
BD
niknak
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There was a time when I would have given my left leg to work for NATS but not anymore.
Who, with any significant experience, wants to relocate to an area which is almost significantly more expensive than the place that they already reside in, to join a rat race bigger than the one any Pied Piper lead, to have a commute to work that is 3 times shorter and which takes 10 times longer, only to be a tadpole in an enormous ocean.
There was a time I would have done it, and I know I am more than capable of being able to validate at at least half their airports, but at an age at which I am very comfortable, working hard but not stressed out by life or the job, why should I bother?
Who, with any significant experience, wants to relocate to an area which is almost significantly more expensive than the place that they already reside in, to join a rat race bigger than the one any Pied Piper lead, to have a commute to work that is 3 times shorter and which takes 10 times longer, only to be a tadpole in an enormous ocean.
There was a time I would have done it, and I know I am more than capable of being able to validate at at least half their airports, but at an age at which I am very comfortable, working hard but not stressed out by life or the job, why should I bother?
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Gonzo,
Well just ask your previous GM,not the current one.I made some general enquires 3 years ago and the question came how old? 42, is that a young 42?? My attitude to that is F
you,I have just lost any interest.Oh I see that Scottish Centre has now got an anti 40 plus policy as well,just in time for it to be completely illegal.'
'If you don't like Band 2 then you can always move to a higher Band unit''.Yeah right.More chance of getting a job at B&Q.Although I'm not too old to work my butt off here.Must get back to easy life now and put my feet up.
Well just ask your previous GM,not the current one.I made some general enquires 3 years ago and the question came how old? 42, is that a young 42?? My attitude to that is F
you,I have just lost any interest.Oh I see that Scottish Centre has now got an anti 40 plus policy as well,just in time for it to be completely illegal.''If you don't like Band 2 then you can always move to a higher Band unit''.Yeah right.More chance of getting a job at B&Q.Although I'm not too old to work my butt off here.Must get back to easy life now and put my feet up.
