Liverpool CTA transits
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Liverpool CTA transits
Advice from Liverpool controllers please!
For someone like me who has an IMC Rating but not an IR, getting through/under the Manchester TMA can be quite a flight planning challenge. The two IFR-VFR-IFR options are:
1. descend to VMC, go through the Manchester LLR, then climb IFR as required once out of the other end
2. descend to VMC on track to Wallasey, aiming to get below 2000ft before reaching the western chunk of the Liverpool CTA (since in my experience Liverpool ATC won't give you a VFR transit clearance in their Class D)
#1 can be difficult, particularly from the north, because the MSA at the north end of the LLR is 3500ft
#2 is (a) difficult from the south due to MSA 2900ft and (b) risky from the north because if you don't reach VMC by 2000ft you have to scratch around the 1500ft section of the CTA and try to pick up your outbound track from Wallasey
For me a safer solution would be to request an IFR transit at 3000ft, for example routing DCS-WAL-Welshpool NDB. However I'm well aware that this route crosses 500ft above the Liverpool 09 ILS, then is opposite direction to any traffic being vectored on to the ILS from the south, and when 27 is in use at Liverpool a 3000ft transit would conflict with WAL SIDs climbing to 4000ft.
So my question is, what are the prospects of getting an IFR transit via WAL at 3000ft at about 0930Z tomorrow morning? Looks like 27 will be in use then.
NS
For someone like me who has an IMC Rating but not an IR, getting through/under the Manchester TMA can be quite a flight planning challenge. The two IFR-VFR-IFR options are:
1. descend to VMC, go through the Manchester LLR, then climb IFR as required once out of the other end
2. descend to VMC on track to Wallasey, aiming to get below 2000ft before reaching the western chunk of the Liverpool CTA (since in my experience Liverpool ATC won't give you a VFR transit clearance in their Class D)
#1 can be difficult, particularly from the north, because the MSA at the north end of the LLR is 3500ft
#2 is (a) difficult from the south due to MSA 2900ft and (b) risky from the north because if you don't reach VMC by 2000ft you have to scratch around the 1500ft section of the CTA and try to pick up your outbound track from Wallasey
For me a safer solution would be to request an IFR transit at 3000ft, for example routing DCS-WAL-Welshpool NDB. However I'm well aware that this route crosses 500ft above the Liverpool 09 ILS, then is opposite direction to any traffic being vectored on to the ILS from the south, and when 27 is in use at Liverpool a 3000ft transit would conflict with WAL SIDs climbing to 4000ft.
So my question is, what are the prospects of getting an IFR transit via WAL at 3000ft at about 0930Z tomorrow morning? Looks like 27 will be in use then.
NS
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Try asking for 2000ft inbound to WAL from north and once overhead WAL ask for climb to 3000ft. You should then be clear of any WAL departures and level by the time you leave the zone to the south. Subject, however, to any REXAM departures.
Or you could ask for 2500ft via the LPL which depending on inbound traffic and runway in use could work.
Alternately VFR transits are regularly approved at 1500ft.
Or you could ask for 2500ft via the LPL which depending on inbound traffic and runway in use could work.
Alternately VFR transits are regularly approved at 1500ft.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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in my experience Liverpool ATC won't give you a VFR transit clearance in their Class D
As an instructor based at Blackpool, I used to take every single one of my students VFR through Liverpool's CTR, and never once was refused a transit. I'd then send my students to do the same thing solo, and only ever heard of one of them being refused a transit (and the student concerned, apparently, made a mess of the initial call on Liverpool's frequency). I also used to take trial lessons inside the CTR to overfly their house if they lived down that way, and again this was never refused to me. In the two years prior to last June when I worked at Blackpool, I must have done literally dozens of VFR transits.
I've got less experience of IFR transits, but I've never had an IFR transit through Liverpool's airspace refused. I maybe did half a dozen IFR transits - a couple with students doing IMC ratings, and a few more myself when flying privately. I generally planned to route LPL-WHI if I was going south-east, or LPL-direct for southbound or south-west. I recall one time I was given vectors, and others I was cleared to transit as requested.
If this is not your experience, I wonder what you are doing that is different to what I did? Any Liverpool controllers care to comment?
what are the prospects of getting an IFR transit via WAL at 3000ft at about 0930Z tomorrow morning?
FFF
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ATCO1979 many thanks for that, useful tips for the future. Unfortunately the trip on Tues was CNX due crap weather at departure airfield. Good call, because weather at north end of Manch LLR and out towards Blackpool was also horrid as I drove past on the M6. Watched a helimed disappearing in and out of patches of stratus at c.500ft.
FFF, yes, I've also had VFR transits notably Kirkby-LPL-Chester not above 1500, but the particular situation I was looking at was when the weather was likely to be unsuitable/marginal for a VFR transit or it was difficult to get from an IFR cruise at say FL75 down to VMC below (for a Kirkby entry the MSA is likely to be 1900ft). Hence trying to find the best IFR transit option. I have to say I'm also not a huge fan of max 1500ft clearances across major built up areas. Call me a wooss but I just don't like that slight roughness of the engine that always seems to kick in just as you cross the first housing estate.
I have however had a very firm "remain outside controlled airspace" when routing Aberporth-Wallasey-Blackpool, with the controller jumping on me to confirm my altitude as I crossed the south bank of the Dee at 1800ft, and refusing my requests to maintain 1800 across Wallasey and climb above 2000 over the sea N of Wallasey. Don't get me wrong I do understand the potential conflictions with IFRs but there are significant safety issues with single engine VFR transits through the Manch-LPL area too so I just wanted to explore all possible options which would make me more comfortable about the safety of my own aircraft.
Of course all this would be solved if some kind soul would give me the c.£10k for an IR. Feel free to pm with offers.......
NS
FFF, yes, I've also had VFR transits notably Kirkby-LPL-Chester not above 1500, but the particular situation I was looking at was when the weather was likely to be unsuitable/marginal for a VFR transit or it was difficult to get from an IFR cruise at say FL75 down to VMC below (for a Kirkby entry the MSA is likely to be 1900ft). Hence trying to find the best IFR transit option. I have to say I'm also not a huge fan of max 1500ft clearances across major built up areas. Call me a wooss but I just don't like that slight roughness of the engine that always seems to kick in just as you cross the first housing estate.
I have however had a very firm "remain outside controlled airspace" when routing Aberporth-Wallasey-Blackpool, with the controller jumping on me to confirm my altitude as I crossed the south bank of the Dee at 1800ft, and refusing my requests to maintain 1800 across Wallasey and climb above 2000 over the sea N of Wallasey. Don't get me wrong I do understand the potential conflictions with IFRs but there are significant safety issues with single engine VFR transits through the Manch-LPL area too so I just wanted to explore all possible options which would make me more comfortable about the safety of my own aircraft.
Of course all this would be solved if some kind soul would give me the c.£10k for an IR. Feel free to pm with offers.......
NS
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If you are coming of DCS why not route dct the "point of Ayr" the controllers know where it is, if you put in the 200 radial range of about 10 miles in a KNS 80 or track a suitable radial of DCS (with a x-check of WAL DME) it should work. This puts you nicely under L10 and after that you can track dct to the HAW before getting a service of Shawbury under N864.
Havn't got my 1/2 mil in front of me but I think you are ok to 3000ft doing it this way, but do check I'm not sure.
Havn't got my 1/2 mil in front of me but I think you are ok to 3000ft doing it this way, but do check I'm not sure.
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50nm sea crossing plus <2nm from boundary of D406 - no fanx! Also still requires a clearance through Liverpool CTA and squeezes you between 2900ft MSA and 3000ft base of CAS.
NS
NS
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Ok route DCS BPL point of Ayr, before dep speak to the eskmeals range on 01229 712246 and get their freq for the day, it was busy when Typhoon was under development and the Navy had some money but not any more.
By definition MSA = Safe, we used to do this quite a bit albeit commercially in a twin. Its a fairly tried and tested route.
But whatever you feel comfortable with, rather do that than get squashed into a tube effectively 250 to 750ft high down the LLR.
Cest la vie
By definition MSA = Safe, we used to do this quite a bit albeit commercially in a twin. Its a fairly tried and tested route.
But whatever you feel comfortable with, rather do that than get squashed into a tube effectively 250 to 750ft high down the LLR.
Cest la vie
