Complying with ATC
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Complying with ATC
Hi ..i have a newbie question...what are the grounds/cases (if any) that a pilot can refuse/not abide by a ATC instruction ? when in controlled Airspace , assuming that it is NOT a call/decision made in view of aircraft safety by the pilot ..example...
1. in case of navigation instructions
2. acceptance of SID/DP clearance
....pardon my ignorance but i'm a absolute novice ...thanks
1. in case of navigation instructions
2. acceptance of SID/DP clearance
....pardon my ignorance but i'm a absolute novice ...thanks
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I guess if the aeroplane cannot, for operational reasons, meet a particular clearance. Eg performance of the aircraft reduced for some reason, or pilot not qualified to fly in particular weather?
Don't recall ever experiencing such a situation in 35 odd years in ATC so can't really offer much more.
Don't recall ever experiencing such a situation in 35 odd years in ATC so can't really offer much more.
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Hi ,
thanks for the replies ,ok lemme put it another way , if it is'nt a safety /operational /aircraft performance issue ,can a pilot refuse to comply ? (at his peril) ..what does the law say ..i guess thats what i was meaning to ask.....
thanks for the replies ,ok lemme put it another way , if it is'nt a safety /operational /aircraft performance issue ,can a pilot refuse to comply ? (at his peril) ..what does the law say ..i guess thats what i was meaning to ask.....
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I can't see any reason a pilot would not take an air traffic instruction if it didn't infringe on "safety, operational or aircraft performance issues"
That is the whole point of controlled airspace...and I think the pilots know it aswell...at least I hope they do. The clue is in our job title..."controller"....not "advisor"
I am sure pilots would like to sequence themselves into land and descend and climb to their respective altitudes but at the Heathrows and the Atlantas and Torontos etc etc it would be a wee bit difficult! Any pilot that refused to comply with a control instruction coming into somewhere busy would have to be a total idiot...and would probably find himself at the back of the queue....and would have to justify it afterwards.
As has been mentioned though...weather...clean speeds...safety issues...Traffic alerts on TCAS are all legitimate reasons why a pilot can refuse an instruction..and normally they will tell you this.
I have seen one Air Canada flight refuse a controller instruction over here for no apparent reason and it lead to an on R/T argument and the pilot being reported and I believe it being included in CRM discussion points.
That is the whole point of controlled airspace...and I think the pilots know it aswell...at least I hope they do. The clue is in our job title..."controller"....not "advisor"
I am sure pilots would like to sequence themselves into land and descend and climb to their respective altitudes but at the Heathrows and the Atlantas and Torontos etc etc it would be a wee bit difficult! Any pilot that refused to comply with a control instruction coming into somewhere busy would have to be a total idiot...and would probably find himself at the back of the queue....and would have to justify it afterwards.
As has been mentioned though...weather...clean speeds...safety issues...Traffic alerts on TCAS are all legitimate reasons why a pilot can refuse an instruction..and normally they will tell you this.
I have seen one Air Canada flight refuse a controller instruction over here for no apparent reason and it lead to an on R/T argument and the pilot being reported and I believe it being included in CRM discussion points.
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In Oz, the regulations state that:
a) an aircraft will comply with an air traffic control instruction, and
b) the pilot-in-command is responsible to ensure that the aircraft complies with an air traffic control instruction.
I'd be surprised if other countries weren't the same.
A pilot can decline an ATC instruction on safety or performance grounds, though.
a) an aircraft will comply with an air traffic control instruction, and
b) the pilot-in-command is responsible to ensure that the aircraft complies with an air traffic control instruction.
I'd be surprised if other countries weren't the same.
A pilot can decline an ATC instruction on safety or performance grounds, though.
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had this very situation several years ago pre 911 (and its the only occasion i might add).
i was the planner for my mate during a very busy westbound oceanic day. an AAL had an oceanic clearance at 360 and was at 340. my mate told him to climb and the pilot asked if he could hold off as 340 was a much better level and he was talking to oceanic for another clearance. As he was running with a 330, 340, and 350 we knew he wasnt going to get it, so he was told to climb now to 360. much to our surprise he said negative we're going to stay here while we talk to shanwick. my mate was amazed,and annoyed coz if he stayed there it was going to be a royal pain in the ass close to 10w. luckily another AAL callsign came up stating his name and told the other AAL to "just do it",funnily enough the pilot then announced climbing 360. after we got out we phoned aal ops to enquire as to wtf that was all about. turns out that the second aal who had said his name was the captain in charge of transatlantic ops and had said he would be discussing it with the pilots involved.
A long winded story i know, but in answer to your question, no if it wasnt a weather/ safety/ aircraft performance issue i would not expect a pilot to refuse a clearance.these days ,if a pilot starts refusing clearances he is more likely to be joined by a couple of small friends off each wing to discuss the situation.
i was the planner for my mate during a very busy westbound oceanic day. an AAL had an oceanic clearance at 360 and was at 340. my mate told him to climb and the pilot asked if he could hold off as 340 was a much better level and he was talking to oceanic for another clearance. As he was running with a 330, 340, and 350 we knew he wasnt going to get it, so he was told to climb now to 360. much to our surprise he said negative we're going to stay here while we talk to shanwick. my mate was amazed,and annoyed coz if he stayed there it was going to be a royal pain in the ass close to 10w. luckily another AAL callsign came up stating his name and told the other AAL to "just do it",funnily enough the pilot then announced climbing 360. after we got out we phoned aal ops to enquire as to wtf that was all about. turns out that the second aal who had said his name was the captain in charge of transatlantic ops and had said he would be discussing it with the pilots involved.
A long winded story i know, but in answer to your question, no if it wasnt a weather/ safety/ aircraft performance issue i would not expect a pilot to refuse a clearance.these days ,if a pilot starts refusing clearances he is more likely to be joined by a couple of small friends off each wing to discuss the situation.
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The ANO states somewhere that in controlled airspace a pilot "must" comply with ATC instructions. If the pilot does not comply the controller can fill out a 939 form and submit it to the CAA who can take further legal action with the pilot ending up in court and possible loss of licence and a prison sentence.
I was training a transferee on Brisbane Arrivals (30 to 150NM BN) one morning setting up an orderly sequence for Approach. One pilot advises he has miscalculated his top of descent and needs 10 extra track miles - we decide (with the FLOW) to vector him out and speed up and track shorten the jet behind - just swap them around. When give the heading the pilot starts up - are we being put back in the sequence - yes. We don't want to be put back, we just want a few extra miles etc etc. After a short time of similar ****, our instruction was "The ATC instruction is, turn right heading ..." Pilot promptly read back the heading and turned right - he understood he had to comply with the ATC instruction, unless he had an operational reason for not doing so.
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Basically you need to remember that as pilot in command, you may deviate from ATC instructions and/or the law to the extent you think necessary in order to safeguard the aircraft or its inhabitants. Of course, you may well have to justify your actions, if necessary in a court of law, so you'd better be on solid ground...
Tim
Tim
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Hope you don't mind a pilot sticking his nose in here.
I always comply with ATC instructions unless there's an overriding safety issue not to (and that applies even outside controlled airspace, where the controller can not legally give me an instruction, but I figure if he's telling me to do something there's a good reason for it).
However, I don't mind "suggesting" to the controller an alternative course of action in some circumstances. An example might be that I am downwind in a left-hand visual circuit, ready to turn base, when the controller instructs me to orbit and position behind traffic on right base. If I can see the traffic on right base, and he's a little wider than me and maybe a little slower, I might suggest to the controller that I can keep it tight and position number one. If the controller says No, then there's no argument, I'll orbit - but it doesn't harm to ask for something different to what you're cleared.
FFF
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I always comply with ATC instructions unless there's an overriding safety issue not to (and that applies even outside controlled airspace, where the controller can not legally give me an instruction, but I figure if he's telling me to do something there's a good reason for it).
However, I don't mind "suggesting" to the controller an alternative course of action in some circumstances. An example might be that I am downwind in a left-hand visual circuit, ready to turn base, when the controller instructs me to orbit and position behind traffic on right base. If I can see the traffic on right base, and he's a little wider than me and maybe a little slower, I might suggest to the controller that I can keep it tight and position number one. If the controller says No, then there's no argument, I'll orbit - but it doesn't harm to ask for something different to what you're cleared.
FFF
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I have to say that just recently there is a well known 3 letter Dutch airline who seem to question the use of speed control by London going into Amsterdam. They do seem to think that they can all land at the same time. It is particularly the long haul fleet but also some of the B737 guys as well. The Fk fleet seem to have a better understanding of what we need to achieve for Amsterdam.
Pity the ops dept can't do something about the callsigns either. We regularly talk to K*M 602,612,622,652,662,672,682 and 692 at the same time-usually at the end of a night duty when mistakes are more likely.
Pity the ops dept can't do something about the callsigns either. We regularly talk to K*M 602,612,622,652,662,672,682 and 692 at the same time-usually at the end of a night duty when mistakes are more likely.
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Flyingforfun.. I hope you don't do it too often as pilots who think they know best can be a serious pain in the bottom! I experienced lots and lots of them at two small "clockwork mice" airfields, but never at the two international airports I worked at. Do please remember that 99% of the time the only agency that knows exactly what is going on is ATC because they have the overall picture of what is happening on and off the frequency. Pilots will be unaware of "problems" which they cannot see.
Happy landings..
Happy landings..
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Originally Posted by FlyingForFun
Hope you don't mind a pilot sticking his nose in here.
I always comply with ATC instructions unless there's an overriding safety issue not to (and that applies even outside controlled airspace, where the controller can not legally give me an instruction, but I figure if he's telling me to do something there's a good reason for it).
However, I don't mind "suggesting" to the controller an alternative course of action in some circumstances. An example might be that I am downwind in a left-hand visual circuit, ready to turn base, when the controller instructs me to orbit and position behind traffic on right base. If I can see the traffic on right base, and he's a little wider than me and maybe a little slower, I might suggest to the controller that I can keep it tight and position number one. If the controller says No, then there's no argument, I'll orbit - but it doesn't harm to ask for something different to what you're cleared.
FFF
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I always comply with ATC instructions unless there's an overriding safety issue not to (and that applies even outside controlled airspace, where the controller can not legally give me an instruction, but I figure if he's telling me to do something there's a good reason for it).
However, I don't mind "suggesting" to the controller an alternative course of action in some circumstances. An example might be that I am downwind in a left-hand visual circuit, ready to turn base, when the controller instructs me to orbit and position behind traffic on right base. If I can see the traffic on right base, and he's a little wider than me and maybe a little slower, I might suggest to the controller that I can keep it tight and position number one. If the controller says No, then there's no argument, I'll orbit - but it doesn't harm to ask for something different to what you're cleared.
FFF
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Why do it if it's not fun?
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Absolutely agree with the replies to my post. Suggesting an alternative course of action to what the controller has asked for is not something to be used regularly. And yes, Markjoy, I would quite happily go around if it didn't work (as I would happily go around from any situation if it wasn't going to work!)
I can think of one occasion when it became clear to me that I was too close to the aircraft in front. It took me a while to get a word in on the busy frequency, but eventually I managed: "G-CD request left hand orbit, unless you'd rather I took runway XX" I said, seeing that the extra distance required to reposition me for another runway would give me just the right amount of spacing. "Great minds think alike - report final runway XX" replied the controller. I debated asking him, over a pint, whether he would ever have sent me to the other runway if I hadn't asked for it, but decided not to!
It's also worth pointing out that, in some environments, the controller might not have the whole picture. For example: this obviously would not apply to a commercial environment, but as a PPL instructor, I know my student's capabilities far better than the controller. The controller knows the full picture as regards traffic, and probably knows that my aircraft type is capable of doing short approaches. He might even know me personally, and know that I am quite happy to and capable of doing a short approach 99% of the time. But there might be an occasion when I have an early student with me, who I know would not have the confidence to perform a short approach. To try the short approach would likely mean that I have to intervene to an extent which would dent my student's confidence - so I would far rather take a couple of orbits, then try a normal, un-hurried approach a few minutes later, which will have far more benefit for my student. Which I'm sure caused some raised eyebrows from the controller when I declined their short approach, especially if they did know me personally and know that I'd normally be quite happy to keep it tight.
So the most important thing, IMHO, is to communicate, so that both parties understand the requirements of the other. And to keep the communication brief, especally on busy frequencies.
FFF
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I can think of one occasion when it became clear to me that I was too close to the aircraft in front. It took me a while to get a word in on the busy frequency, but eventually I managed: "G-CD request left hand orbit, unless you'd rather I took runway XX" I said, seeing that the extra distance required to reposition me for another runway would give me just the right amount of spacing. "Great minds think alike - report final runway XX" replied the controller. I debated asking him, over a pint, whether he would ever have sent me to the other runway if I hadn't asked for it, but decided not to!
It's also worth pointing out that, in some environments, the controller might not have the whole picture. For example: this obviously would not apply to a commercial environment, but as a PPL instructor, I know my student's capabilities far better than the controller. The controller knows the full picture as regards traffic, and probably knows that my aircraft type is capable of doing short approaches. He might even know me personally, and know that I am quite happy to and capable of doing a short approach 99% of the time. But there might be an occasion when I have an early student with me, who I know would not have the confidence to perform a short approach. To try the short approach would likely mean that I have to intervene to an extent which would dent my student's confidence - so I would far rather take a couple of orbits, then try a normal, un-hurried approach a few minutes later, which will have far more benefit for my student. Which I'm sure caused some raised eyebrows from the controller when I declined their short approach, especially if they did know me personally and know that I'd normally be quite happy to keep it tight.
So the most important thing, IMHO, is to communicate, so that both parties understand the requirements of the other. And to keep the communication brief, especally on busy frequencies.
FFF
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Last edited by FlyingForFun; 6th Aug 2006 at 18:18.
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Well the answer is very simple, Pilot In Command has the final authority over the aircraft, and can depart from general flight rules as well as from Air Traffic Control instruction if it is in the interest of safety!!! But in all cases mentioned above you, as pilot, are obliged to advise the air traffic control of the reason for taking such action!!! For example if radar controller asks you to fly certain heading, and that heading seems to be inappropriate for you due weather, lets say you have this huge CB on that heading, then you will say that you are unable to fly that heading and controller shall give you alternative instruction accordingly!!! I hope that I have helped you!
