SOU Slots - Don't ask!

[Kiltie]

Recently I have heard several pilots from different airlines being tactfully chastised for asking TWR whether they have a slot outbound. I have heard responses along the lines of:

"HotJet 123 have you asked your handling agent?"

or

"FlashLine 123 we are very busy in the tower with controlling duties we don't really have the time to perform handling agent tasks."

In a pilot's defence, there have been many occasions where we call for push and are informed by a surprised controller that our slot is not until an hour's time so he can't allow pushback so early. On such occasions the pilots are usually oblivious to the fact that they had a slot in the first place. A quick R/T call to the handling agent is often met with the same response.....they have not received slot information either.

In summary it looks like you chaps in ATC receive slot information much sooner or even independently of an airline's handling agent. Clearly this is a communication issue that needs resolved somewhere but it occurs at airports other than SOU so you're not being singled out.

Just don't have a go at us pilots please chaps; we're not being thick when we ask!

[haughtney1]

We are thick though..well i know I am

[Tuned In]

So why have we had unexpected slots recently? I can understand into Germany, but I have had others.

I usually don't get them because of the time of day/routing I fly, but have had several recently. It is a nuissance if I am not being handled, so don't know until I am in the aircraft and the customer then has to be told. In the last one I waited 20 minutes for my slot but still London couldn't manage to give me a release into controlled airspace and when i did get up I was routed well out of the way by radar vector. So what was the point of the slot?

[one dot right]

We are thick though..well i know I am

Yup, me too, mr thickie from thickton!

[SATCO]

Sounds like a right old comms failure here; the issue of a slot time is centralised and automated and should be received by the AO (including it's handling agent, where notified), and to ATC.

Can't see any reason why EGHI ATC are saying "talk to your handler" - they get the slot time and should be using it to (a) plan the departure sequence and (b) ensure slot time compliance.

Extracted from ATFCM Users' Manual:
"Slot Allocation Message (SAM)
A SAM is sent to AOs/ATS any time a flight becomes regulated (new flight entering the system, new period of regulation in the system, in response to an FCM or CHG providing new RVR after a suspension) but at the earliest 2 hours before the last received EOBT."

[Atcham Tower]

Providing a helpful service is obviously not a priority at EGHI ...

[almost professional]

A Slot is part of the ATC clearance, therefore informing A/C of the slot and revisions and ensuring A/C meet the slot is most definitly a controlling task!-MATS PT1 chapter 4 2.2

[VATCO]

Slots

Personnally I try to let the crew know as they taxi in if they have a slot.
Not always possible if really busy but should at least alert the crew to the fact slots are about and to keep checking with handling agent etc.
Keep up the team work everyone !!!!

[chiglet]

For all sorts of "unknown" reasons [at Manch at least], the Handling Agents [sometimes] don't pass the slot. So when the pilots ask for ATC clearance, it often comes as a shock to find that they have missed their slot.
Some handling Agents do NOT have a "Slot Machine" and keep phoning us [ATC] for slots
watp,iktch

[JustaFew]

Steady on,Dave. They may have even less staff than us...

[withins]

Originally Posted by almost professional

A Slot is part of the ATC clearance, therefore informing A/C of the slot and revisions and ensuring A/C meet the slot is most definitly a controlling task!-MATS PT1 chapter 4 2.2

Exactly almost profesional

How difficult or time consuming is it to say to a pilot after giving an a/c his clearance and listening to the readback say "XXX123 readback correct, your slot time is XXXX"

At this point the pilot will either:-

a) Inform you that he is aware of the slot, or

b) Be shocked and appalled and state he was unaware as the handling agent had not informed him that there was a restriction.

Either way everyone will now know where they stand and it will then be up to either the pilot's company/handling agent or ATC to try and get an improvement, who then is responsible seems to be decided at a local level rather than something which is subject to any hard and fast rules.

Job Done

[kraggy]

Recently I have heard several pilots from different airlines being tactfully chastised for asking TWR whether they have a slot outbound.

i thought that airlines paid large amounts of money for these slots and that they would thus be automatic for a certain time each day/week? if so, then why would a pilot ask Twr if they have a slot or not?

Could anyone shed some light on how the slot-time system works from the point of view of the air traffic controller?

or provide a link to an explanation?

tried searching the web but to no avail...

thanks

[1985]

Originally Posted by kraggy

i thought that airlines paid large amounts of money for these slots and that they would thus be automatic for a certain time each day/week? if so, then why would a pilot ask Twr if they have a slot or not?

Could anyone shed some light on how the slot-time system works from the point of view of the air traffic controller?

I'll try but someone be prepared to correct me.

Slots are not automatic for a certain time of day/week they are issued by the central flow management unit in Brussels every day and are designed to keep the numbers of aircraft flying through any particular sector of airspace to a manageable level. Whilst they benefit the area controllers more they have more of an impact on airfield ops due to the flight having to take-off within a specified time period (-5 mins to +10 mins) of the slot time. If the aircraft misses its slot time then a new slot has to be issued which is when delays start occuring.

[Chilli Monster]

Originally Posted by kraggy

Could anyone shed some light on how the slot-time system works from the point of view of the air traffic controller?

In simple terms:

The Central Flow management Computer in Brussels knows the theoretical capacity of every bit of airspace and every runway in Europe.

Say it states that a certain Sector can take 45 aircraft per hour at certain levels. However, 50 plan into it. 5 of those have to be shunted into the next hour to accomodate - hence a departure slot is issued to delay them.

The restriction is not just confined to area operations. For example - Airport has a major weather problem that reduces arrival rate, or loses a runway, or has staffing / equipment problems. They notify CFMU of the reduced acceptance rate - Flights inbound to the airport then get delayed so that the rate is adhered to.

Those are the "Slots" that you will see mentioned here. "Runway Slots" at major airports are a totally different game, and one way the major airports make their money.

[foghorn]

Originally Posted by Chilli Monster

Those are the "Slots" that you will see mentioned here. "Runway Slots" at major airports are a totally different game, and one way the major airports make their money.

Also it's delays cause by such slots that pilots often blame on "Air Traffic Control" when making PA annoucements to their passengers. This gets ATCOs backs up, since it's more likely than not nothing to do with them.

[kraggy]

Slots are not automatic for a certain time of day/week they are issued by the central flow management unit in Brussels every day and are designed to keep the numbers of aircraft flying through any particular sector of airspace to a manageable level. Whilst they benefit the area controllers more they have more of an impact on airfield ops due to the flight having to take-off within a specified time period (-5 mins to +10 mins) of the slot time. If the aircraft misses its slot time then a new slot has to be issued which is when delays start occuring.

ok. i guess what i'm really trying to determine is the sequence of communication between all systems.

do say Ryanair's ops team file a plan for a flight that would normally be scheduled and the CFMU issue a slot based on this request?

and if this slot is missed, will a new strip with updated dep time automatically come out of the atc system to the controllers for the conerned flight?

thanks a lot chilli and 1985

[Lucifer]

Originally Posted by foghorn

Also it's delays cause by such slots that pilots often blame on "Air Traffic Control" when making PA annoucements to their passengers. This gets ATCOs backs up, since it's more likely than not nothing to do with them.

Area control would appear to quite patently "air traffic control" to me.

[chiglet]

kraggy,
No, IF a slot is missed, EITHER the Company, OR ATC will send a "slot missed message" or a "delay" to Brussels. This will give a new slot with xx mins delay, or if lucky, an Outreg [Out of Regulation=No Delay]
watp,iktch

[Chilli Monster]

Originally Posted by kraggy

do say Ryanair's ops team file a plan for a flight that would normally be scheduled and the CFMU issue a slot based on this request?

Yes, but slots are only issued if necessary - they aren't always. These flights are deemed to be "out of regulation" and can go any time providing the FPL is still live.

and if this slot is missed, will a new strip with updated dep time automatically come out of the atc system to the controllers for the conerned flight?

No - you miss your slot, you've missd your chance and you have to delay or refile the plan. Flight Plans within the IFPS zone (Europe basically) have to be delayed if the aircraft is going to be off blocks 15 minutes or more later. If you delay the plan then a new slot will be issued - might be 5 minutes later, might be 50, might even be out of regulation and no slot applicable.

What DOESN'T work is crews knowing their slot, running late, and thinking "It's ok, ATC will let us go if we're outside slot tolerance" - we won't. It may be possible to get an extension if we have the time and opportunity to phone the Flow management people - but don't count on it.

[foghorn]

Originally Posted by Lucifer

Area control would appear to quite patently "air traffic control" to me.

Weather and runways out of use aren't though, they are frequent causes of "Air Traffic Control" delays.