clearence or not a clearence
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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clearence or not a clearence
watching some aviation dvds i often hear US ATC give clearences such as:
Speedbird 217 you're cleared land no 2
now how can someone be cleared to land when there is traffic ahead? i mean what if the vis was poor and the preceeding a.cft has not vacated yet??
also what do you guys think of their frequency read backs such as
contact ground now point niner
i know USA CTRs are busy but LHR seem to manage properly!
Speedbird 217 you're cleared land no 2
now how can someone be cleared to land when there is traffic ahead? i mean what if the vis was poor and the preceeding a.cft has not vacated yet??
also what do you guys think of their frequency read backs such as
contact ground now point niner
i know USA CTRs are busy but LHR seem to manage properly!
Join Date: Oct 2000
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At Heathrow and some other UK airports it is perfectly legitimate and safe for ATC to clear an aircraft to land with the one ahead still on the runway. The phrase "After the landing xxx, cleared to land" where "xxx" is the type of aircraft ahead. Something similar may be used when a landing aircraft is following a departure.
Certain criteria must be met in terms of weather conditions, whether it's day or night, distance between the aircraft, whether the pilot of the following aircraft can see the one ahead, etc. USA procedures are different to ours but have similar safeguards and their procedure would not be employed in fog! All these procedures are published in various manuals and a good place to start for details of the UK procedures is the AIP Gen 3.3.3.
Certain criteria must be met in terms of weather conditions, whether it's day or night, distance between the aircraft, whether the pilot of the following aircraft can see the one ahead, etc. USA procedures are different to ours but have similar safeguards and their procedure would not be employed in fog! All these procedures are published in various manuals and a good place to start for details of the UK procedures is the AIP Gen 3.3.3.
Join Date: May 2002
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Its the whole "anticipated separation" thing again isn't it?
At Heathrow we can use an "after the landing" clearance, but as HD says, there are certain criteria that have to be met before it can be used (eg can only be used for next aircraft to land), and the controller still accepts responsibility for separation (different therefore to a "land after" clearance).
However, in the states they can use it the minute someone first calls eg "BAW123 number 6, cleared to land", which does seem a bit much, but it also seems to work. I presume the controller would still be accepting responsibility for separating the arrivals and if one of them cant vacate the runway then he'd have to start sending the following aircraft around, hence the controller is anticipating that the previous landers will be clear.
I would presume that it can't be used in LVPs and bad weather though.
FB
At Heathrow we can use an "after the landing" clearance, but as HD says, there are certain criteria that have to be met before it can be used (eg can only be used for next aircraft to land), and the controller still accepts responsibility for separation (different therefore to a "land after" clearance).
However, in the states they can use it the minute someone first calls eg "BAW123 number 6, cleared to land", which does seem a bit much, but it also seems to work. I presume the controller would still be accepting responsibility for separating the arrivals and if one of them cant vacate the runway then he'd have to start sending the following aircraft around, hence the controller is anticipating that the previous landers will be clear.
I would presume that it can't be used in LVPs and bad weather though.
FB
A difference in Outlook
The Yanks are optimists - they assume every landing will be successful, and only interfere when it goes wrong.
Brits are pessimists - they treat every landing as a potential accident, and only give subsequent landing clearance when proven wrong.
Brits are pessimists - they treat every landing as a potential accident, and only give subsequent landing clearance when proven wrong.
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Best so far was.....
XXX034, you are cleared to intercept LOC 25L, at your discretion break off, follow the Lear Jet, runway 19L, do not join final below 4,000 QNH, you have helicopter traffic below you on final, clear land 19L.
The F/O looked at me with eyes like dinner plates - he had not been to Vegas before
I wish I had been in the helicopter as we turned final, it would have looked stunning - Big Bus, fully configed, 30 degree bank, about 1/2 mile and 600' away.
XXX034, you are cleared to intercept LOC 25L, at your discretion break off, follow the Lear Jet, runway 19L, do not join final below 4,000 QNH, you have helicopter traffic below you on final, clear land 19L.
The F/O looked at me with eyes like dinner plates - he had not been to Vegas before
I wish I had been in the helicopter as we turned final, it would have looked stunning - Big Bus, fully configed, 30 degree bank, about 1/2 mile and 600' away.
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Brits are pessimists
Or the UK Mil "land with one on" options?
CMIIAW... Both clearances are only given subject to laid-down conditions, but both allow the Controller to issue a landing clearance before the runway is vacated.
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I dunno, "#2 Cleared to land" isn't a tenth as scary as watching AF T-38's doing full stop landings left of centerline while those on the right side of centerline are in burner doing a touch-n-go.... 
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We do clear everyone pretty much to land on first contact (I won't go into the good or the bad of it as I have intersting discussions with some of my brethern here <G>.), we also know that we are responsible and can tell folks to go around. As to the contact ground point nine on clearning, all grounds in the US are 121. something unless otherwise noted. That is one way of getting around the whole thing... If you don't understand though, just simply ask on freq.
regards
Scott
regards
Scott
