Solent Radar!
Joined: Nov 2005
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
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From: Wildest Surrey
Yes why do we have so many airspace classifications? Why not merge B & C, leaving A as it is, then also merge D,E and F? This would reduce it to 4 classes from the present 7.
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 338
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From: UK Home Counties
Please remember that VFR and IFR flights receive the same separation in Class D as they do in class G - none.
...they do not get paid to provide a LARS service by the Governement
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 12
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From: Not where I want to Be!!!!
Expedite08 you still don't state what transit you were refused, what was the route and height.
I don't use the solent airspace much but when I do I have always had a great service and no complaints.
Solent are not a LARS and those not entering the airspace should make use of Bournemouth Boscombe Farnbrough Plymouth Mil or use flight information.
I don't use the solent airspace much but when I do I have always had a great service and no complaints.
Solent are not a LARS and those not entering the airspace should make use of Bournemouth Boscombe Farnbrough Plymouth Mil or use flight information.
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 2,212
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From: Anywhere
Originally Posted by DFC
It is not the "minimum" service, it is the service provided full stop.
To save you looking up the document (location however quoted in my original answer), here is the actual wording cut and pasted - relevant word italicised
Classification of Airspace
The classification of the airspace within a flight information region determines the flight rules which apply and the minimum services which are to be provided.
The classification of the airspace within a flight information region determines the flight rules which apply and the minimum services which are to be provided.
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,218
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From: Surrey
Originally Posted by CAP493
Whilst this is indeed the requirement set out in MATS Part 1 (and derived from ICAO Annex 11) it's nowadays a highly dubious procedure. Expecting the flight crew of a high-performance glass-cockpit aircraft operating in complex terminal airspace, often adhering to onerous noise abatement requirements, to adopt a 'see-and-be-seen' technique against VFR traffic is frankly, a nonesense.
Where I grew up and learned to fly (KHPN), handles 180k movements a year (6.5 x Solents I think) in a class D zone, about the size and shape of a MATZ, and without the ability to refuse a zone transit (i.e. operated to ICAO spec). These movements are a wide mix of traffic, but with a lot of commercial and heavy biz jet traffic.
This philosophy difference appears to drive part of the relatively higher cost/movement of ATC in the UK vs. US and the very binary airspace structure (highly controlled or 'not' controlled)
Joined: Mar 2002
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From: Euroland
Chilli,
The applicable standard which the UK claims to conform to is ICAO Annex 11. If the MATS 1 does not reflect that internationally agreed requirement then it is up to the UK to either change the MATS 1 or publish a difference.
To use your argument, controllers could impose an ATC service in classs G airspace. i.e. it is above the minimum service!
The same argument whould also permit a pilot to demand a higher level of service than FIS in class G airspace.
Annex 11 gives a clear requirement for the country to select an appropriate class or classes of airspace to suit their needs and then provide the services appropriate to that class of airspace.
Thus while I would agree ATC could offer to provide a level of service that is higher than the standards required for a particular class of airspace (and as a controller working with only an ATZ and class G, you no doubt do on a daily basis), a pilot can decline the offer. At the same time, pilots can (and often do) request a higher level of service than the class of airspace requires to be provided and ATC are entitled to say it is not available or to provide it as they think appropriate.
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mm_flynn,
You don't have to go that far away.
France has class E for much of the lower airspace including airways, cta's and ctr's. The controllers there do not feel the need to control VFR flights on the airways who are talking to them just because they have IFR traffic.
Ireland on the other hand has taken a slightly different line and everything is class C. However, they at least have told everyone that they will (and do) separate VFR from IFR in controlled airspace.
Regards,
DFC
The applicable standard which the UK claims to conform to is ICAO Annex 11. If the MATS 1 does not reflect that internationally agreed requirement then it is up to the UK to either change the MATS 1 or publish a difference.
To use your argument, controllers could impose an ATC service in classs G airspace. i.e. it is above the minimum service!
The same argument whould also permit a pilot to demand a higher level of service than FIS in class G airspace.
Annex 11 gives a clear requirement for the country to select an appropriate class or classes of airspace to suit their needs and then provide the services appropriate to that class of airspace.
Thus while I would agree ATC could offer to provide a level of service that is higher than the standards required for a particular class of airspace (and as a controller working with only an ATZ and class G, you no doubt do on a daily basis), a pilot can decline the offer. At the same time, pilots can (and often do) request a higher level of service than the class of airspace requires to be provided and ATC are entitled to say it is not available or to provide it as they think appropriate.
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mm_flynn,
You don't have to go that far away.
France has class E for much of the lower airspace including airways, cta's and ctr's. The controllers there do not feel the need to control VFR flights on the airways who are talking to them just because they have IFR traffic.
Ireland on the other hand has taken a slightly different line and everything is class C. However, they at least have told everyone that they will (and do) separate VFR from IFR in controlled airspace.
Regards,
DFC
I say there boy
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,065
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From: Somewhere
Originally Posted by mm_flynn
without the ability to refuse a zone transit (i.e. operated to ICAO spec).
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 2,212
Likes: 0
From: Anywhere
Originally Posted by DFC
To use your argument, controllers could impose an ATC service in classs G airspace. i.e. it is above the minimum service!
The same argument whould also permit a pilot to demand a higher level of service than FIS in class G airspace.
)
Thus while I would agree ATC could offer to provide a level of service that is higher than the standards required for a particular class of airspace
(and as a controller working with only an ATZ and class G, you no doubt do on a daily basis),
a pilot can decline the offer. At the same time, pilots can (and often do) request a higher level of service than the class of airspace requires to be provided and ATC are entitled to say it is not available or to provide it as they think appropriate.
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 183
Likes: 0
From: Cambridgeshire
SAM ATC and Class D
Never had a problem with Solent, always professional and friendly Class D is there for the protection of their planes ok when they are busy you accept thats the way it is and go around as Ive done before. If your maybe unsure of this in the air then always make up a back up plan before you fly. Im off to Channels Isles shortly my route encompasses Class D and Danger Areas where I may have probs so I think right how can I plan if things dont go my way and come up with plan B or C if required. A recent GA i talked to was in an active Salisbury Danger area and he didnt seem to comprehend the problem or another chap who thought he could plough thru them! How do these guys brief, or is it the GPS line from A to B? Support Chilli Monster in his words of wisdom about ATC services, well explained.
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,814
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From: Euroland
Originally Posted by Chilli Monster
And a RAS is.......................................?
Thus the services available depend almost on the time since last blue moon and not on any recognised system that one can use to plan.
However, getting back to Class D, you have not commented on my statement that;
Traffic avoidance is not the same as separation. Do you agree?
If so then you will see that if an IFR flight requests traffic avoidance against a VFR there is no requirement to provide standard IFR-IFR separation.
If you think that avoidance and separation are the same can you please pass on the laid down separation standards for weather avoidance
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I have been in and out of EGHI plenty of times and can say that when it gets busy (airways inbounds not split off), the main reason is that there are lots of VFR flights calling for FIS who are not going anywhere near the airspace and who unfortunately are not immediately told "FIS available from London on 124.75".
Don't call us we will call you or the never ending standby is poor practice. It makes what is normally an excellent service appear poor.
Regards,
DFC
Beady Eye
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,495
Likes: 1
From: UK
Originally Posted by DFC
Traffic avoidance is not the same as separation. Do you agree?
If so then you will see that if an IFR flight requests traffic avoidance against a VFR there is no requirement to provide standard IFR-IFR separation.
If so then you will see that if an IFR flight requests traffic avoidance against a VFR there is no requirement to provide standard IFR-IFR separation.
If you think that avoidance and separation are the same can you please pass on the laid down separation standards for weather avoidance
BD
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 2,212
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From: Anywhere
Originally Posted by DFC
However, getting back to Class D, you have not commented on my statement that;
Traffic avoidance is not the same as separation. Do you agree?
Traffic avoidance is not the same as separation. Do you agree?
If so then you will see that if an IFR flight requests traffic avoidance against a VFR there is no requirement to provide standard IFR-IFR separation.
If you think that avoidance and separation are the same can you please pass on the laid down separation standards for weather avoidance
There's a big difference between reality and idealistic theory - Let's just leave it that I work in a world of reality, you live in a world of idealistic theory.
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 34
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From: The South
Originally Posted by neilmac
A recent GA i talked to was in an active Salisbury Danger area and he didnt seem to comprehend the problem or another chap who thought he could plough thru them! How do these guys brief, or is it the GPS line from A to B?
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=233411
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 65
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From: Airwaves
I have a friend who was refused clearance to route via SAM despite being IFR on a flight plan. He assures me this is not allowed, and he should know. It also suggests that some of the advice here would not be enough. A flight plan warns them you're coming, but doesn't give them extra controllers (I am informed, fairly reliably, that this is a problem at Solent).
Had he been a recently-qualified IMC pilot rather than an IMC instructor (nothing in the flight plan indicated his qualification, the type was a light single on the registration not a callsign) he might have had some difficulty routing in IMC unexpectedly around what is complicated airspace, with the proximity of Odiham and Wallop plus Bournemouth, danger areas and some HIRTAs and the lack of RNAV on the aircraft.
Having said that I have never had a problem with Solent, and was welcomed in as a professional GA pilot when I went to EGHI.
Had he been a recently-qualified IMC pilot rather than an IMC instructor (nothing in the flight plan indicated his qualification, the type was a light single on the registration not a callsign) he might have had some difficulty routing in IMC unexpectedly around what is complicated airspace, with the proximity of Odiham and Wallop plus Bournemouth, danger areas and some HIRTAs and the lack of RNAV on the aircraft.
Having said that I have never had a problem with Solent, and was welcomed in as a professional GA pilot when I went to EGHI.
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 911
Likes: 43
From: Bournemouth UK
I think the inconsistencies in service can sometimes come down to which controller is on. I fly with Solent Flight and when we used to be at Southampton there were some controllers who would orchestrate things superbly, slipping us GA in between the bigger boys, whilst other controllers would leave you orbiting for ages because they have an aircraft on 10 mile final. Perhaps they have been bitten in the past and they are now over cautious.
One particular controller at Solent is extremely helpful and I think rather amusing. I'm told he holds a PPL/IR which probably goes some way to explain why he's so helpful, Simon keep up the good work!
SW
One particular controller at Solent is extremely helpful and I think rather amusing. I'm told he holds a PPL/IR which probably goes some way to explain why he's so helpful, Simon keep up the good work!
SW
