BRASO holding for Heathrow inbounds does NOT equal EAT's
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hants
Posts: 2,295
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mancboy
Properly streamed means to me, going to the correct fix, or on a decent heading, with speeds that take into consideration the traffic situation i.e. Easterlies at Gatwick, 300+ kts 5 miles from GWC is pants; even more so if holding... just ask pilots how they enjoy being told to fly at 300+kts (which is against the rules without coordination anyway), only to be told by us reduce 210kts, hold at Willo!!
However, before you start getting all defensive again, if you read my post, I have also said that you guys do not get the aircraft in enough time, with enough airspace to always be able to do this all the time ... so chill
Properly streamed means to me, going to the correct fix, or on a decent heading, with speeds that take into consideration the traffic situation i.e. Easterlies at Gatwick, 300+ kts 5 miles from GWC is pants; even more so if holding... just ask pilots how they enjoy being told to fly at 300+kts (which is against the rules without coordination anyway), only to be told by us reduce 210kts, hold at Willo!!
However, before you start getting all defensive again, if you read my post, I have also said that you guys do not get the aircraft in enough time, with enough airspace to always be able to do this all the time ... so chill
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Swanwick, England
Posts: 244
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Anotherthing, I can't speak for my south colleagues as i only do north bank sectors.
On DTY and CLN we can and actually have to present traffic at speeds of 300 knots plus and it is in our rules that we are allowed to anyway.
You still haven't said what 'properly' streamed traffic is. Unless it is stipulated in MATS part 2, as it is for CC inbounds through TNT for example, then one persons interpretation of streaming is going to be different from another persons ideas.
I can be defensive if I want to. Far too many people from both sides are too quick to whinge and slag off the other side without understanding the other persons problems.
If you read my earlier posts on other threads you will see that I have been valid in TC and AC so have seen it from both sides.
In a perfect world everything will be streamed 'properly' but get real, you ain't going to get it EVERY time.
Some people in TC need to realise that traffic may come over on speeds or headings which are actually to suit us against other traffic that isn't going into the TMA.
Not long now till you can come into the AC ops room at Swanwick and show us how to did it.
On DTY and CLN we can and actually have to present traffic at speeds of 300 knots plus and it is in our rules that we are allowed to anyway.
You still haven't said what 'properly' streamed traffic is. Unless it is stipulated in MATS part 2, as it is for CC inbounds through TNT for example, then one persons interpretation of streaming is going to be different from another persons ideas.
I can be defensive if I want to. Far too many people from both sides are too quick to whinge and slag off the other side without understanding the other persons problems.
If you read my earlier posts on other threads you will see that I have been valid in TC and AC so have seen it from both sides.
In a perfect world everything will be streamed 'properly' but get real, you ain't going to get it EVERY time.
Some people in TC need to realise that traffic may come over on speeds or headings which are actually to suit us against other traffic that isn't going into the TMA.
Not long now till you can come into the AC ops room at Swanwick and show us how to did it.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Swanwick, England
Posts: 244
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Anotherthing, another thing.
Why not tell which ever sector it is that is giving you the traffic what you want when you are holding or know that KK is on easterlies and you can see they have a bunch of inbounds so that they can plan ahead at bit more and maybe get the french or whoever to start presenting traffic better.
I agree that if you are getting traffic at ridiculous speeds a short distance from the hold then that is poor awareness from the AC bods end and i apologise on their behalf, inbred southbankers.
On CLN we are trying to encourage TC and AC to communicate more and let each other know what they what at times of holding or busy bunches of inbounds, and it seems to be improving things.
Are you sure that the southbank sectors actually know the impact of KK or LL on easterlies has on their options of presenting traffic to you?
If they have never been told how will they know what is ideally required?
Why not tell which ever sector it is that is giving you the traffic what you want when you are holding or know that KK is on easterlies and you can see they have a bunch of inbounds so that they can plan ahead at bit more and maybe get the french or whoever to start presenting traffic better.
I agree that if you are getting traffic at ridiculous speeds a short distance from the hold then that is poor awareness from the AC bods end and i apologise on their behalf, inbred southbankers.
On CLN we are trying to encourage TC and AC to communicate more and let each other know what they what at times of holding or busy bunches of inbounds, and it seems to be improving things.
Are you sure that the southbank sectors actually know the impact of KK or LL on easterlies has on their options of presenting traffic to you?
If they have never been told how will they know what is ideally required?
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: uk
Posts: 194
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
bizjetjock - in the event of r/t failure etc then you use the "EAT or if one has not been issued then your last known ETA " etc
however - lets hope it doesn't come to that!
anyway - what's the harm in saying to crews "hold at XXX expect 10 mins delay"?
it keeps them in the picture, and does reduce r/t as then you don't get asked how long the delay is
just a thought
louby
however - lets hope it doesn't come to that!
anyway - what's the harm in saying to crews "hold at XXX expect 10 mins delay"?
it keeps them in the picture, and does reduce r/t as then you don't get asked how long the delay is
just a thought
louby
Moderator
Join Date: Jul 1997
Location: Europe
Posts: 3,228
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quite right, you should have issued an "Expect onward clearance time".
Brasso is an enroute hold on the way to the terminal hold at LAM is it not?
Brasso is an enroute hold on the way to the terminal hold at LAM is it not?
For intermediate approaches, the 20 minutes applies. Approach expected within 20 minutes, no EAT or onward clearance time required ... outwith 20 minutes, an EAT must be issued.
Remember it's not just for radio failure purposes, the pilots have to calculate holding fuel and decide whether a diversion might be requiered once their fuel reserves (under JAR or FAA rules) are depleted. Better to do so sooner rather than later
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hants
Posts: 2,295
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mancboy
May i suggest you read the contents of posts before getting defensive... I mentioned in both my posts that the AC guys quite often do not get enough time or airspace to do the job to either their or TCs satisfaction.
Just in the same way as TC does not have the time nor the space often.
Take a chill pill, and stop being defensive... it starts to make people think you are trying to make excuses there is no need to.
May i suggest you read the contents of posts before getting defensive... I mentioned in both my posts that the AC guys quite often do not get enough time or airspace to do the job to either their or TCs satisfaction.
Just in the same way as TC does not have the time nor the space often.
Take a chill pill, and stop being defensive... it starts to make people think you are trying to make excuses there is no need to.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Greystation
Posts: 1,086
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
get the french or whoever to start presenting traffic better.
Nothing will stop S19 putting the first in a stream at 300kts as I agree with Anotherthing, there isn't enough time or airspace to do anything differently. If we know there is holding we will try to slow them down but not always possible.
To make the situation better then we need to get the system the LAS's have for delays available at ALL sector positions, but we know that'll never happen.
Now if we could just talk once again about those headings on DVR........blah...blah...blah...
5mb, well inbread southbanker
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 523
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To make the situation better then we need to get the system the LAS's have for delays available at ALL sector positions, but we know that'll never happen.
If the above doesn't happen, why not, and isn't it about time it did??
30W
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Greystation
Posts: 1,086
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I know the LAS's are renowned for sitting back and letting it all run down the drain, but I can hardly expect them to come over to every sector and update us of the current delay to LHR and LGW every 15 minutes. Some are good enough to let us know as the delays creep up toward 20 minutes, but without the accurate info we can only generalise. I've seen the board, and at times one a/c in the sector gets 15 mins, another 12, and the third only 5, so how do we pass that generally?
Isn't it about time we get the correct information at our fingertips?
Isn't it about time we get the correct information at our fingertips?
Join Date: May 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 796
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by 5milesbaby
Isn't it about time we get the correct information at our fingertips?
Up to that point delay info passed is generic ie 5 to 10, 10 to 15, 15 to 20.
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 130
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by BizJetJock
So how does this fit in with the principle that in the event of comms failure in IMC in the hold you should commence your approach as close as possible to EAT?
otherwise the approach is started based on if the RT failure occured before or after entering the hold or before or after contact with ATC (ie the APC controller running the hold)
Nearly all airfields in the UK publish RT fail procedures for inbound aircraft, which vary slightly from the general procedure. They also cater for thos times when EAT's have not been issued OR acknowledged.
