Warped Factor

Interesting ATSIN just published.

Free movement of controllers between EU States soon...?

WF.

Spitoon

If they can speak the necessary lingo......

aluminium persuader

My guess is that a lot of countries will retain civil ATC under the Civil Service umbrella, ie you will first have to pass the civil service entry exams (and subsequent promotion exams) before specialising in ATC. Sad, but there it is!

Neptune262

This is directly related to my thread of language requirements. It looks like they have until 2010 to sort out their language skills requirements. Welcome to Single Sky!

SonicTPA

The ATSIN also says that we will have to take English tests to prove our proficiency in English.

A step too far methinks...

A7700

When you listen some natives from the pure malt area, they even risk to fail the test...

lippiatt

Alas - No light at the end of the long tunnel for the mil controllers hoping to have their military 'licences' recognised.

anotherthing

Quite rightly too especially if talking about crossing from Mil Area to Civvy Area.

Spitoon

Not wishing to be provocative - but I have had a particularly bad day - I think military 'licences' are recognised in the civil world. They're recognised as not equivalent to their civil cousins.

But, in truth, the common licence is a step even further away from parity. All that is needed to see this is to compare the training and knowledge requirements for a civil licence with those required to gain a military 'licence.

Neptune262

Or do what other European countries do and train all ATCOs exactly the same way, whether they are Military or Civilian. That would solve everything!

anotherthing

lippiat

As Spitoon says - mil licences are not regarded as being equal to civil licences, and vice versa (at least in the UK).

I am a civvy controller now, I was a Mil controller with endorsements in TWR, GND, SUP, TALKDOWN, APP (RA) and APP (PROC), DIR, LARS, OJTI and LEO. The only recognition my previous experience got me was to be allowed to apply over the normal age limit (I am purely talking NATS here).

I think NATS should lighten up a little and allow MIL controllers (who are still current) to by pass the aptitude tests etc and only have to sit the personnel interview and the medical.

I do believe that apart from the groundschool subjects which Mil controllers are given exemption from, Ex Mil controllers should attend the college - civil and mil controlling are different.

It would be nice if it was possible for an Ex Mil to go straight to a unit to train and miss out the college, but the amount of extra training the OJTIs would have to do to civilianise the Mil controller would be too much to do, bearing in mind the lack of resources at units as it stands.

tired-flyboy

Sorry have to disagree with you anotherthing.
Having recently left the college - i can assure that that Mil controllers are not exempt from the groundschool.
Although the time to enter the college has drastically reduced there is the question of currency. If you swap and blue suit for civvies within (i think it is 6 months) then you may be exempt groundschool. If its over this time then you'll def be doing the exams.
The hardest part of the switch from Mil to Civ controlling is the use of strips. Something about trying to teach old dogs etc (and i ain't that old neither!!)
As for your final point, didn't they try to do this at LACC but differing success??

HEATHROW DIRECTOR

<<My guess is that a lot of countries will retain civil ATC under the Civil Service umbrella, ie you will first have to pass the civil service entry exams (and subsequent promotion exams) before specialising in ATC. Sad, but there it is!>>

Don't think there's anything sad about that. I started life as a Civil Servant and I think the move of UK ATC into the "private" sector was an unmitigated disaster. Commercial pressures should NOT be part of ATC.. I also believe that the "old" system of Civil Service interviews and a lengthy training programme produced better-equipped candidates than the current system.

aluminium persuader

I agree with that, HD. What I was referring to as "sad" is that in a lot (if not all) of those countries you would have to sit a lengthy Civil Service entry exam in their language and gain promotion by sitting further CS exams rather than through experience and ability as a controller. You would also need to meet the residential & nationality requirements for Civil Service which is not (as far as I know)) regulated by the EU. This does lead to an effective bar on foreign Direct Entry ATCOs.

On the other side of the coin, I believe that some French airfields are municipally-run & outside the Civil Service. They are smaller airfields & lower-paying, but apparently they are there! Whether or not other countries have the same, I couldn't tell you.

ap

CAP493

Rumour has it that the UK military ATC school (CATCS) at RAF Shawbury will from +/-2007 include in it's Terminal and ARTS courses, the common core content from the imminent European Common Civil ATC Licence training syllabus.

If correct, this should lead to a significant reduction in the required conversion training from UK military to civil.

Spitoon

I'm sorry HD, this is not a dig at you but why is it that some people think that in the UK everything ATC is NATS. For long before NATS was 'privatised' there were privately operated ATC units all over the UK. OK, they were not at what were then 'the big airports' but they were there.....and what is wrong with them? I've worked in both NATS, for long established private operators and for smaller organisations that went through privatisation before NATS did. They all had on thing in common - if there was a good boss, they were good places to work. And the converse was true. Perhaps the reason that HD thinks it was a disaster is because managers in NATS went from cosy civiol service types to commercial business managers - I guess some were simply unprepared, some liked the idea of being tycoons and other made the transition well becase they either had inate talent or had been trained at some point. But one thing is clear - having an ATC licence does not automatically make one a good comercial business manager!

The business about privatisation and safety is slightly different. It doesn't matter what basis ATC is run on, as long as there is a good and effective safety regulator then ATC will be safe. Whether a regulator is good and effective and whether there is scope for improvement in the regulator are different topics entirely.

Matoman

Rumour has it that the UK military ATC school (CATCS) at RAF Shawbury will from +/-2007 include in it's Terminal and ARTS courses, the common core content from the imminent European Common Civil ATC Licence training syllabus.

If correct, this should lead to a significant reduction in the required conversion training from UK military to civil.

My understanding is that with effect from 355 JATCC, CATCS are already teaching the necessary ESAAR5 elements that have been agreed with SRG.

Whether this will lead to any real reduction in any future cross-over training remains to be seen, but at least it's a step in the right direction. Personally, I believe all UK civil and military controllers should be treated as a national resource and trained to a common standard, as they are in Germany and a number of other countries.

Matoman

BDiONU

But in the UK when our skies were not for sale they were a national resource, then our skies were sold and they no longer are. Next to be flogged off is DFS Germany, not sure who's on the list after that.
So the comments about having to sit civil service exams will be a thing of the past.
Single European Skies (except for France) is very firmly on the EU agenda and the laws are being changed to make it so.

BD

frogATC

BDiONU, why do you say "except for France" ?
I'm far from being an expert on Single Sky, but I guess France is concerned by Single Sky, like every other European country !

BDiONU

Just the usual little dig Because whilst cooperation with French ATC is very good they seem to be ruled by the unions

BD