Zurich UAC transfer to Geneva UAC postponed.
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Originally Posted by ZRH
Wow. That must be a terrible amount of pressure. Frequency change while descending!! Imagine trying to fly straight and level and then get a frequency change. Again, WOW!
ex-Tanker
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Arrogance?? Skyguide? Aeropers? Bokkenrijder?
So where is the arrogance in Flowman's posting Aeropers?
He just put the thread here to inform people what is going on -
although it doesn't reflect well on the organisation. That is the
opposite of arrogance. I imagine, that Aeropers (the organisation) would
very much like to find out who is posting in its name in this negative way.
As for Bokkenrijder finding that things go well in Amsterdam, that
must come close to one of the worst places to fly in to. Controllers
who sound very confident and breezy as they line you up short on an ILS which has a 30kt ++ crosswind and low ceiling waiting for you and then sound hurt and surprised when you refuse or go around. Ideal runways which
can't be used due again to noise politics. A taxyway puzzle as soon as you leave the runway with an immediate frequency change. Departures
which keep you busy enough at low level to be distracting. You name it...
FC.
He just put the thread here to inform people what is going on -
although it doesn't reflect well on the organisation. That is the
opposite of arrogance. I imagine, that Aeropers (the organisation) would
very much like to find out who is posting in its name in this negative way.
As for Bokkenrijder finding that things go well in Amsterdam, that
must come close to one of the worst places to fly in to. Controllers
who sound very confident and breezy as they line you up short on an ILS which has a 30kt ++ crosswind and low ceiling waiting for you and then sound hurt and surprised when you refuse or go around. Ideal runways which
can't be used due again to noise politics. A taxyway puzzle as soon as you leave the runway with an immediate frequency change. Departures
which keep you busy enough at low level to be distracting. You name it...
FC.
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Few - I didn't say Flowman was arrogant, I referred to Skyguide.
If you want an examlpe of their arrogance think back to their reaction after Ueberlingen.
I assure you that I am acting with the full authority of Ewiges Wegli.
On yer bike back to Peter Symonds.
If you want an examlpe of their arrogance think back to their reaction after Ueberlingen.
I assure you that I am acting with the full authority of Ewiges Wegli.
On yer bike back to Peter Symonds.
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Flowman
Be ready for the next trial. According to well informed sources, the next CTOT for UAC CH is on March 29 just before midnight.
Bokkenrijder
You said you flew into GVA from the NE, must have been in contact with Reims ACC. You were then transferred to SWISS 134.025, followed by GENEVA ARRIVAL 136.25, in busy times to GENEVA FINAL 120.8, before ending up at GENEVA TOWER 118.7… I guess this is quite a logic and highly common procedure. Over the entry point you call an ACC-Sector, then APPROACH and finally the TOWER. So what is wrong or even arrogant about that??
Do you remember the good old PARTA-SPR routing?? So better don’t complain about today’s comfortable transitions with plenty of time for frequency changes. If you stick to these and don’t ask for shortcuts, you won’t be too high and there will be time enough to enjoy and become perfectly aware of what we call “hills”
.
Be ready for the next trial. According to well informed sources, the next CTOT for UAC CH is on March 29 just before midnight.
Bokkenrijder
You said you flew into GVA from the NE, must have been in contact with Reims ACC. You were then transferred to SWISS 134.025, followed by GENEVA ARRIVAL 136.25, in busy times to GENEVA FINAL 120.8, before ending up at GENEVA TOWER 118.7… I guess this is quite a logic and highly common procedure. Over the entry point you call an ACC-Sector, then APPROACH and finally the TOWER. So what is wrong or even arrogant about that??
Do you remember the good old PARTA-SPR routing?? So better don’t complain about today’s comfortable transitions with plenty of time for frequency changes. If you stick to these and don’t ask for shortcuts, you won’t be too high and there will be time enough to enjoy and become perfectly aware of what we call “hills”
.
Time merchant
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This is turning into a bit of a slanging match better suited to Jet Blast than Rumours and News. There is plenty of scope for healthy and informative debate so why don't we stick to that before the mods are forced to close the thread down.
Bokkenrijder: Swiss airspace has traditionally been what we refer to as vertically sectorised. i.e. instead of the sectors being divided like fields on a map they are divided like strata that you see in a cliff face. This is out of necessity due to the very high amount of overflying traffic. Maastricht have a similar system. It means less frequency changes and co-ordination for the overflights but, sadly for you, more frequency changes when climbing or descending into/out of swiss aerodromes.
The new sectors are split at 355, 325, 285 and 245. So not quite every 2000'. Perhaps you will have to do less twiddling with your knobs in future
Bokkenrijder: Swiss airspace has traditionally been what we refer to as vertically sectorised. i.e. instead of the sectors being divided like fields on a map they are divided like strata that you see in a cliff face. This is out of necessity due to the very high amount of overflying traffic. Maastricht have a similar system. It means less frequency changes and co-ordination for the overflights but, sadly for you, more frequency changes when climbing or descending into/out of swiss aerodromes.
The new sectors are split at 355, 325, 285 and 245. So not quite every 2000'. Perhaps you will have to do less twiddling with your knobs in future
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Thanks flowman for returning us all to sanity.
I think what Bokkenrijder is referring to is more likely an arrival via G5 (Bern-Zurich). As one of those "guilty" TMA/approach controllers at LSGG I can assure you that whenever possible, co-ordination is effected to avoid unnecessary frequency changes.
The fact is, as flowman said, the airspace is divided vertically and as a result, you have to cross a number of sectors while in descent. If it wasn't so, you'd have to do the same horizontally anyway so no win there. The upper sectors (through which all said freq changes occur) ARE very busy. What would you prefer, fewer frequency changes but an overloaded sector?
Now on to the weather. Like a large number of pilots, I'm sure that you actually have very little knowledge of the amount of co-ordination that goes on on your behalf. If you're arriving LSGG during the day from the direction of Zurich and, for example, start avoiding on first call to the geneva TMA sector(128.9), we first have to call the military as they tend to be a bit twitchy about aircraft disappearing off these days! (military training areas on BOTH sides of the airway). Then we have to call the Zurich upper sector, whose airspace you're still in (IF you're turning left, you're head on to their arrivals in descent). Then we have to call the Geneva upper sector, whose airspace you'll be descending through but not in contact with. Finally, this also has to be arranged with approach who may or may not have their own requirements. All the while, of course, taking terrain clearance into account (how many 16,000 ft mountains to complicate matters around Heathrow/Amsterdam/Paris) as well as our other traffic. Believe me, we don't have much time to sit around with our thumbs in warm, dark places when there's weather about.
While I don't for a second claim that all is peachy here - the vast majority of my colleagues are highly competent and far more accommodating than you think (360 around the Matterhorn anyone?).
Rant mode off. See you at 7. am.
Bon Soirée!
I think what Bokkenrijder is referring to is more likely an arrival via G5 (Bern-Zurich). As one of those "guilty" TMA/approach controllers at LSGG I can assure you that whenever possible, co-ordination is effected to avoid unnecessary frequency changes.
The fact is, as flowman said, the airspace is divided vertically and as a result, you have to cross a number of sectors while in descent. If it wasn't so, you'd have to do the same horizontally anyway so no win there. The upper sectors (through which all said freq changes occur) ARE very busy. What would you prefer, fewer frequency changes but an overloaded sector?
Now on to the weather. Like a large number of pilots, I'm sure that you actually have very little knowledge of the amount of co-ordination that goes on on your behalf. If you're arriving LSGG during the day from the direction of Zurich and, for example, start avoiding on first call to the geneva TMA sector(128.9), we first have to call the military as they tend to be a bit twitchy about aircraft disappearing off these days! (military training areas on BOTH sides of the airway). Then we have to call the Zurich upper sector, whose airspace you're still in (IF you're turning left, you're head on to their arrivals in descent). Then we have to call the Geneva upper sector, whose airspace you'll be descending through but not in contact with. Finally, this also has to be arranged with approach who may or may not have their own requirements. All the while, of course, taking terrain clearance into account (how many 16,000 ft mountains to complicate matters around Heathrow/Amsterdam/Paris) as well as our other traffic. Believe me, we don't have much time to sit around with our thumbs in warm, dark places when there's weather about.
While I don't for a second claim that all is peachy here - the vast majority of my colleagues are highly competent and far more accommodating than you think (360 around the Matterhorn anyone?).
Rant mode off. See you at 7. am.
Bon Soirée!
The Original Party Animal
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Well, guys, looks like we gonna have to ask Aeropers (the association that is) about that "full authority" thing, aeropers (the ill-informed tw*t that is) is claiming to have...
FYI Skyuide is not operating from Dübendorf (as yet).
FYI Skyuide is not operating from Dübendorf (as yet).
fritzleuenberger
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And now for the next installment.....refused by OFAC....put off until autumn at the earliest
The future certainly is bright. Lots of miles to be collected on the "miles and more" programme.
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Scathing report on 'Skyguide'
The NZZ, Switzerlands most respected newspaper, has today published a report by the BAZL (Swiss CAA) that contains scathing criticism of 'Skyguide' - "the most expensive, incompetent, arrogant air traffic control organisation with the world's worst safety record" - as I said earlier in this thread.
It's almost entirely negative and uses extraordinarily severe language for the normally compromise-based Swiss establishment, such as:
'Complete chaos'
'Massive criticism'
'Severe negligence'
'Inefficient preparation'
'Miserable standard'
'Inadequate training'
'No confidence'
'No improvement initiative or culture'
'25 million Francs wasted'
The report concerns not only the planned and now indefinitely postponed upper airspace transfer but the entire organisation, management and culture.
Just another chapter in the miserable history of civil aviation in Switzerland over the past 10 years...
It's almost entirely negative and uses extraordinarily severe language for the normally compromise-based Swiss establishment, such as:
'Complete chaos'
'Massive criticism'
'Severe negligence'
'Inefficient preparation'
'Miserable standard'
'Inadequate training'
'No confidence'
'No improvement initiative or culture'
'25 million Francs wasted'
The report concerns not only the planned and now indefinitely postponed upper airspace transfer but the entire organisation, management and culture.
Just another chapter in the miserable history of civil aviation in Switzerland over the past 10 years...
Originally Posted by aeropers
Just another chapter in the miserable history of civil aviation in Switzerland over the past 10 years...
Have to admit tough that much of this also is a consequence of the Swiss culture of negativism and backstabbing which has done a lot to contribute to the current mess. Leave the rest to politicians and voilà!
Bl**dy disgrace is the only expression that comes to mind.
ex-Tanker
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http://www.nzz.ch/2006/04/09/il/articleDQPAI.html
The report is here in German.
I didn't read anything about arrogance or having the world's worst
safety record, however.
FC.
I didn't read anything about arrogance or having the world's worst
safety record, however.
FC.
Last edited by Few Cloudy; 10th Apr 2006 at 19:58.
Originally Posted by Few Cloudy
The report is here in German.
I didn't read anything about arrogance or having the world's worst
safety record, however.
FC.
I didn't read anything about arrogance or having the world's worst
safety record, however.
FC.
Must say, knowing the NZZ and their rep, which is a sight better than most of the Swiss Press, the article is very strongly worded. I was appalled to read some of the stuff in there.
On the day to day basis, I see no reason however to feel unsave or being treated arrogantly by those at the front. Hence my rather sharp comments on the original allegations.
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Investigation Report on Nov. 11th '03 ATC Breakdown
Hi,
Since you read german, take a look at the Investigation Report released today on the total ATC-Breakdown in ZRH on Nov. 11th. '03 due to a reckless handling of an IT-Problem. It's not issued by a newspaper whatsoever, but by the Federal Aircraft Accident Bureau and its quite sharp too : http://www.bfu.admin.ch/de/pdf/u1887_d.pdf (link to this report also posted in the ATC Forum). An english translation should be available mid-may.
Cheers
B.
Since you read german, take a look at the Investigation Report released today on the total ATC-Breakdown in ZRH on Nov. 11th. '03 due to a reckless handling of an IT-Problem. It's not issued by a newspaper whatsoever, but by the Federal Aircraft Accident Bureau and its quite sharp too : http://www.bfu.admin.ch/de/pdf/u1887_d.pdf (link to this report also posted in the ATC Forum). An english translation should be available mid-may.
Cheers
B.
ex-Tanker
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Hello Ettore,
Thanks for the link.
To me two important things stand out in this older case:
1. Once again it was the techies causing failures during ops time (also a not unimportant factor in the Überlingen case).
2. Most of the crews were favourably impressed with the controllers' handling of the problem. (Eine überwiegende Mehrheit der Flugbesatzungen, die zur Zeit des Radardatenausfalls mit der Flugverkehrsleitung Zürich in Verbindung standen, äusserte sich positiv über die Handhabung des Flugverkehrs durch die ATC während des Ausfalls.)
In the case which lead to this thread, it was the politicians who led to a precipitate reversal in policy. The controllers had to make the best of it.
Ask Napoleon what happens when an army has to reverse direction - cannons at the back and the cookhouse up front...
FC.
Thanks for the link.
To me two important things stand out in this older case:
1. Once again it was the techies causing failures during ops time (also a not unimportant factor in the Überlingen case).
2. Most of the crews were favourably impressed with the controllers' handling of the problem. (Eine überwiegende Mehrheit der Flugbesatzungen, die zur Zeit des Radardatenausfalls mit der Flugverkehrsleitung Zürich in Verbindung standen, äusserte sich positiv über die Handhabung des Flugverkehrs durch die ATC während des Ausfalls.)
In the case which lead to this thread, it was the politicians who led to a precipitate reversal in policy. The controllers had to make the best of it.
Ask Napoleon what happens when an army has to reverse direction - cannons at the back and the cookhouse up front...
FC.
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Here is the link to the Skyguide reply (in english) to the report on the Nov' 03 Blackout (credit to Chuchischätzeli, one of the most beautiful Swiss alias ever found on pprune, who posted it in the ATC-Forum):
http://www.skyguide.ch/en/homepage/1...lackout_en.pdf
http://www.skyguide.ch/en/homepage/1...lackout_en.pdf
