Flight Strips and Speed; LATCC
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Flight Strips and Speed; LATCC
Within the last few weeks I have had the pleasure of visiting both West Drayton and Swanwick on PPRuNe Private Flying visits, (here and here ) and I thank all the ATCO's for their patience, professionalism and good humour during those visits.
If I may seek the answers to a few questions, I would be grateful.
1. Why is the large type on printed strips the flight number, and not the call sign? I had a devil of a time while in the Swanwick TDU reconciling the radio callsign with the information on the strip. Admittedly, the call sign is on the strip, but in much smaller type, and often partially hidden by the plastic border of the holder. I guess practice?
2. Further to this: without a pen, how will you scribble on strips the important, immediate details when the strips become computerised? (this was demonstrated to me inadvertently by the supervising ATCO relieving me of the pen!)
3. Even though I fully understand the difference, I found it very confusing that the ground speed displayed on RADAR bore no resemblance to the IAS used by the aircraft pilots...asking for a reduction/increase in speed needed me to enquire of the IAS from the aircraft. So would there not be scope for example the transponder to transmit the IAS seen by the pilots and for this to be displayed on the controllers screen? Or something less expensive to incorporate? Or is it again practice?
4. Should I have been calling myself "Swanwick" instead of "London"?
Hope these are not as silly questions as they seem to me.
Rob L
If I may seek the answers to a few questions, I would be grateful.
1. Why is the large type on printed strips the flight number, and not the call sign? I had a devil of a time while in the Swanwick TDU reconciling the radio callsign with the information on the strip. Admittedly, the call sign is on the strip, but in much smaller type, and often partially hidden by the plastic border of the holder. I guess practice?
2. Further to this: without a pen, how will you scribble on strips the important, immediate details when the strips become computerised? (this was demonstrated to me inadvertently by the supervising ATCO relieving me of the pen!)
3. Even though I fully understand the difference, I found it very confusing that the ground speed displayed on RADAR bore no resemblance to the IAS used by the aircraft pilots...asking for a reduction/increase in speed needed me to enquire of the IAS from the aircraft. So would there not be scope for example the transponder to transmit the IAS seen by the pilots and for this to be displayed on the controllers screen? Or something less expensive to incorporate? Or is it again practice?
4. Should I have been calling myself "Swanwick" instead of "London"?
Hope these are not as silly questions as they seem to me.
Rob L
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Hi Rob,
I'm a trainee at LTCC but I'll have a crack at answering your questions. You'll probably get a better answer from an experienced controller though.
1.
I'm not sure about everyone else but I personally don't read the spelt out callsign unless I don't know it. For example if I see BAW123, from experience I know that BAW = Speedbird and therefore don't even look at the full version printed above the actual callsign. However if I got one which I wasn't familiar with, it's nice to have it on the strip.
2.
I have no experience with EFPS so can't comment.
3.
A standard Mode A readout will provide a groundspeed which in most cases is more relevant than IAS, especially when judging a 'catch up' between aircraft which are climbing and descending. An Enhanced Mode S readout can show the selected IAS which is more relevant to aircraft in the approach phase or even in the cruise.
4.
'London Control' is the callsign used by all LACC and LTCC TMA sectors.
I'm a trainee at LTCC but I'll have a crack at answering your questions. You'll probably get a better answer from an experienced controller though.
1.
I'm not sure about everyone else but I personally don't read the spelt out callsign unless I don't know it. For example if I see BAW123, from experience I know that BAW = Speedbird and therefore don't even look at the full version printed above the actual callsign. However if I got one which I wasn't familiar with, it's nice to have it on the strip.
2.
I have no experience with EFPS so can't comment.
3.
A standard Mode A readout will provide a groundspeed which in most cases is more relevant than IAS, especially when judging a 'catch up' between aircraft which are climbing and descending. An Enhanced Mode S readout can show the selected IAS which is more relevant to aircraft in the approach phase or even in the cruise.
4.
'London Control' is the callsign used by all LACC and LTCC TMA sectors.
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Further to this: without a pen, how will you scribble on strips the important, immediate details when the strips become computerised
When we were designing the stripless ODS for Maastricht one of the first mods. to the design was to incorporate a groove to stop the pens rolling on the floor
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"Why is the large type on printed strips the flight number, and not the call sign? I had a devil of a time while in the Swanwick TDU reconciling the radio callsign with the information on the strip."
The Flight number reconciles with the information displayed on the radar display, ie BAW123 will be displayed on the radar screen not Speedbird123
The Flight number reconciles with the information displayed on the radar display, ie BAW123 will be displayed on the radar screen not Speedbird123
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Flower, you are right, but when my first knowledge of a flight on my sector is that a strip arrived on my desk, then a call on the radio...but blip did not yet show on the screen?
Scuzi
That was my problem...Experience, perhaps...but why not use "SPB0508" instead of "BAW0508" as the big letters on the strip?
Harks back to the silly Airport designators in this country too...I was trying to remember that NX is East Midlands and BB is Birmingham...but wtf is Luton GW and Gatwick not GW?
At least Stansted is SS.
All the above written as a vanilla PPL...
Scuzi
from experience I know that BAW = Speedbird
Harks back to the silly Airport designators in this country too...I was trying to remember that NX is East Midlands and BB is Birmingham...but wtf is Luton GW and Gatwick not GW?
At least Stansted is SS.
All the above written as a vanilla PPL...
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Further to your answer to my point 3, Scuzi, ...what I meant to say was:
How can I ask a flight to "reduce speed 215 knots" when I don't know what the IAS on the flight deck is reading?
I do understand that g/s is more relevant to a Controller, it's more of a communication thing.
Rob
How can I ask a flight to "reduce speed 215 knots" when I don't know what the IAS on the flight deck is reading?
I do understand that g/s is more relevant to a Controller, it's more of a communication thing.
Rob
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why not use "SPB0508" instead of "BAW0508"
e.g. BAW is Speedbird, DLH is Lufthansa
You get used to it and after a while it's automatic
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<<How can I ask a flight to "reduce speed 215 knots" when I don't know what the IAS on the flight deck is reading?>>
It's called "experience". Radar controllers have a very good idea of what speeds aircraft are flying in the same way that they can interpret wind effect when issuing headings. On some occasions the speed which is being requested is a "standard" speed and it may not then be necessary to know exactly what speed the aircraft is flying.
Regarding your other questions on codes.... they're done that way because that's the system ATC uses. It's worked perfectly OK since Pontius was a pilot so why change it? For controllers it's a kind of shorthand.
Glad you enjoyed your visits. Probably one of the most amusing things (to me) I ever did was during a visit of PPLs to West Drayton..... I took one of the ladies to one side and whispered: "I suppose you know that the majority of people working in this room are mentally deranged?"
It's called "experience". Radar controllers have a very good idea of what speeds aircraft are flying in the same way that they can interpret wind effect when issuing headings. On some occasions the speed which is being requested is a "standard" speed and it may not then be necessary to know exactly what speed the aircraft is flying.
Regarding your other questions on codes.... they're done that way because that's the system ATC uses. It's worked perfectly OK since Pontius was a pilot so why change it? For controllers it's a kind of shorthand.
Glad you enjoyed your visits. Probably one of the most amusing things (to me) I ever did was during a visit of PPLs to West Drayton..... I took one of the ladies to one side and whispered: "I suppose you know that the majority of people working in this room are mentally deranged?"
Originally Posted by DubTrub
Harks back to the silly Airport designators in this country too...I was trying to remember that NX is East Midlands and BB is Birmingham...but wtf is Luton GW and Gatwick not GW?
At least Stansted is SS.
All the above written as a vanilla PPL...
At least Stansted is SS.
All the above written as a vanilla PPL...
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2sheds, the T in EGTx is for (former) military airfields if my memory serves me right?
The first letter K may stand for the whole of mainland USA, the first letter E stands for northern Europe, southern Europe having the L. So, seeing it on the broader scale, there is not so much difference. It is in both cases that the second letter narrows down from the larger entity.
I didn't know the third letter was meaningful as well in the UK, at least for people with a little more geographical knowledge of the country than I used to have. Thank you for this.
By the way, isn't it great that the second letter for Britain is a G ?
The first letter K may stand for the whole of mainland USA, the first letter E stands for northern Europe, southern Europe having the L. So, seeing it on the broader scale, there is not so much difference. It is in both cases that the second letter narrows down from the larger entity.
I didn't know the third letter was meaningful as well in the UK, at least for people with a little more geographical knowledge of the country than I used to have. Thank you for this.
By the way, isn't it great that the second letter for Britain is a G ?
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Originally Posted by songbird29
2sheds, the T in EGTx is for (former) military airfields if my memory serves me right?
The first letter K may stand for the whole of mainland USA, the first letter E stands for northern Europe, southern Europe having the L. So, seeing it on the broader scale, there is not so much difference. It is in both cases that the second letter narrows down from the larger entity.
I didn't know the third letter was meaningful as well in the UK, at least for people with a little more geographical knowledge of the country than I used to have. Thank you for this.
By the way, isn't it great that the second letter for Britain is a G ?
The first letter K may stand for the whole of mainland USA, the first letter E stands for northern Europe, southern Europe having the L. So, seeing it on the broader scale, there is not so much difference. It is in both cases that the second letter narrows down from the larger entity.
I didn't know the third letter was meaningful as well in the UK, at least for people with a little more geographical knowledge of the country than I used to have. Thank you for this.
By the way, isn't it great that the second letter for Britain is a G ?
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ICAO regions use 4 letter identifier codes. the first letter is the region - E Northern Europe; second is the country - G for UK, H for Netherlands, D for Germany, and so on. The third and fourth are allocated by the state.
In the UK LATCC and its predecessors (back to Uxbridge?) is EGTT and the fourth letter indicates an airfield linked to that, at least that's what I learned many years ago.
The airlines have their own system as their ops. tend to be less global and use only three letters.
Similarly nav. aids. Back in nineteen canteen there were still things called fan-markers which had a very small range (still in use on ILS as markers BTW). They were identified by two letters corresponding to the Morse Identifier. Then came NDBs, and later VORs identified by three letters and an attempt made to relate this to a geographical position, DVR is Dover for example.
Now with sat. nav. systems intersections (so called because they were initially defined by radials from two VORs) are increasingly used and they are allocated five letter designators. Whilst these often reflect a geographical position often they refer to a person's name or physical attributes, sometimes with comical effects eg GAFFA in central Australia. Whilst involved in plans to restructure the N.Sea Airspace some years ago a sequence of BETTY BITES BIGGA BALOX was used initially. Unfortunately it did not make it through.
In the UK LATCC and its predecessors (back to Uxbridge?) is EGTT and the fourth letter indicates an airfield linked to that, at least that's what I learned many years ago.
The airlines have their own system as their ops. tend to be less global and use only three letters.
Similarly nav. aids. Back in nineteen canteen there were still things called fan-markers which had a very small range (still in use on ILS as markers BTW). They were identified by two letters corresponding to the Morse Identifier. Then came NDBs, and later VORs identified by three letters and an attempt made to relate this to a geographical position, DVR is Dover for example.
Now with sat. nav. systems intersections (so called because they were initially defined by radials from two VORs) are increasingly used and they are allocated five letter designators. Whilst these often reflect a geographical position often they refer to a person's name or physical attributes, sometimes with comical effects eg GAFFA in central Australia. Whilst involved in plans to restructure the N.Sea Airspace some years ago a sequence of BETTY BITES BIGGA BALOX was used initially. Unfortunately it did not make it through.
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<<Then came NDBs, and later VORs identified by three letters and an attempt made to relate this to a geographical position, DVR is Dover for example.>>
Can I be the only one who remembers the old 3-letter identifiers such as MYW for Watford, MYE for Epsom, MYD for Dunsfold (radio range), etc? The M indicated UK as the international radio prefixes for the UK include G, M and several others.
Back to my Ivalek Crystal set, rubber ring and Horlicks...
Can I be the only one who remembers the old 3-letter identifiers such as MYW for Watford, MYE for Epsom, MYD for Dunsfold (radio range), etc? The M indicated UK as the international radio prefixes for the UK include G, M and several others.
Back to my Ivalek Crystal set, rubber ring and Horlicks...
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No! You ain't!
And MWN for Bushmills (I was at ScATCC at the time....)
And wot about in the fifties and early sixties when the location indicators for the UK were 4 letters beginning with G eg. Heathrow was GALA. You had G-ALAN ( a Viscount ISTR) inbound to GALA etc. ISTR Gatwick was GAKA or something. And as for Croydon...........I forget.
HD, may I borrow your rubber ring, Old Boy?
Nurse.......nurse........I say, what was the four letter word for Croydon, miss, if you wouldn't mind old girl?.............medicine......what medicine? Oh.......medicine....what now?.......aaaaaaahhhhh
And MWN for Bushmills (I was at ScATCC at the time....)
And wot about in the fifties and early sixties when the location indicators for the UK were 4 letters beginning with G eg. Heathrow was GALA. You had G-ALAN ( a Viscount ISTR) inbound to GALA etc. ISTR Gatwick was GAKA or something. And as for Croydon...........I forget.
HD, may I borrow your rubber ring, Old Boy?
Nurse.......nurse........I say, what was the four letter word for Croydon, miss, if you wouldn't mind old girl?.............medicine......what medicine? Oh.......medicine....what now?.......aaaaaaahhhhh
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Bren, I'd forgotten that. I think most of them had changed by the mid-sixties, aroun=d the time that people started to realise that you wouldn't fall off the edge of the world if you left the UK.
Talkdownman, I'm old but not pre-historic although I can vaguely remember old, even then, books with GALA etc. in And yes I remember G-ALAN ... and G-APOX and .... Back in the days when we had proper pilots (who looked like James Robertson Justice or Jimmy Edwards)
Talkdownman, I'm old but not pre-historic although I can vaguely remember old, even then, books with GALA etc. in And yes I remember G-ALAN ... and G-APOX and .... Back in the days when we had proper pilots (who looked like James Robertson Justice or Jimmy Edwards)
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Lon More
Captain Danny always shows his Mods this clip when he thinks we are getting ideas above our station ... those were the days I suppose
http://www.pprune.org/images/OutOfTheClouds2.avi
Captain Danny always shows his Mods this clip when he thinks we are getting ideas above our station ... those were the days I suppose
http://www.pprune.org/images/OutOfTheClouds2.avi
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Originally Posted by Lon More
.... Back in the days when we had proper pilots (who looked like James Robertson Justice or Jimmy Edwards)
Bren, I remember old Cockney Robbie's sector transit coordination - '' Clear ta blow froo at firty free".....
.............and "three cheers Alpha" (F-BBBA, a regular which I recall was a Dak)
Last saw Robbie in me local wiv an slightly older woman, abaht ninety. This is me girlfriend, he said.............
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22/04
Two comments
When I first read the debate over flightstrips I thought that flight numbers and alpha numerics were the issue.
So is EZY2CR on the flight strip as that both for flight number and callsign or is the four figure flight number (as advertised to pax) displayed for example. The latter would be very complicated.
As an aside, are controllers of Cowley/Wellin (e.g. 130.92) at Swanick or LTCC.
Thanks in advance for your answers
When I first read the debate over flightstrips I thought that flight numbers and alpha numerics were the issue.
So is EZY2CR on the flight strip as that both for flight number and callsign or is the four figure flight number (as advertised to pax) displayed for example. The latter would be very complicated.
As an aside, are controllers of Cowley/Wellin (e.g. 130.92) at Swanick or LTCC.
Thanks in advance for your answers
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22/04
The "Flight Plan".....eg SHT3N A320 EGCC.N615.EGLL...is Shuttle 3N filed Manchester via Airway N615 to Heathrow. Your ticket will be BAxxxx. BMI wil be WW on the ticket.
The "Callsign" that the company file is the callsign that is used from A to B...by ATC eg, EZE83VM......is an Eastern Airways flight.The Airline code is 3wxxxx
The "Flight Plan".....eg SHT3N A320 EGCC.N615.EGLL...is Shuttle 3N filed Manchester via Airway N615 to Heathrow. Your ticket will be BAxxxx. BMI wil be WW on the ticket.
The "Callsign" that the company file is the callsign that is used from A to B...by ATC eg, EZE83VM......is an Eastern Airways flight.The Airline code is 3wxxxx