Best advice when your airways ATCer gets really cross with you?
It was the talk of the DBplaza for a while.Makes a change from Dogs,Babies and £50K Golf Carts
Join Date: Jul 2002
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veloo... The idea of the pilot apologizing has its place... I've always told my pilot friends that, in the case of something minor, a reply to the controller along the lines of "I'm sorry. I must have misunderstood" goes a long way. That having been said, I would encourage everybody (pilots and controllers alike) to beware assuming all of the blame in an effort to defuse the situation if the error is one which may lead to certificate action. In such a case your confession is right there on tape, whether or not you truly were to blame.
However, as a fundamental rule, there should be no tongue-lashing on the radio. I accept Scott's contention that we're all human and subject to emotional outbursts from time to time, but you need to un-key the mic before spewing venom. Having been a union rep, I've represented controllers before the facility manager when corrective action has been taken against the controller on the basis of such an outburst. In these cases I've been an excellent advocate for the controller and used just this sort of reasoning. However, speaking to the controller one-on-one, I've never hesitated to say, "What the hell were you thinking? Knock that **** off!" Almost 30 years ago now, my first ATC trainer told me that controlling aircraft comes down to having a kit full of tools that you're skilled in using, and then selecting the right tool for a given task. It is my position that an angry outburst should not be in that kit.
I've preached this before on this forum, and I'll say it again: when a seasoned pilot or controller screws up it's almost NEVER because he or she is stupid or careless or intent upon being a problem. If any of you would like to witness what it's REALLY like to work with someone who simply follows poorly-developed instinct without regard for rules or common sense I will be happy to lend you my 18 year old son. There is a stark contrast between that experience and the simple errors made by professional aviators. Trust me.
Scott, I don't mean to pick on you here, but a couple of other things (while I'm ranting)... First, you make a point about the controller having had enough with stupid pilot tricks. I understand that. However, doesn't that imply that the controller let a bunch of problems slide by without dealing with them, only to let it all erupt on the guy he happened to be working when he reached the end of his rope? That sort of thing doesn't work in marriage and it doesn't work in aviation. It'll eat a hole in your stomach and ruin what would have been a salvageable career (or relationship). On top of that, it simply isn't fair to the guy who bears the brunt of the outrage which had been fed by pilots he didn't even know. Second, I think the "verbal lashing" versus certificate action dilemma is false. As Westie pointed-out, the vast majority of these things will not result in a loss of certificate for the pilot, and as I'm now pointing-out, the verbal lashing is not acceptable. However, there are a large number of tools in between. We just have to remember to use them (and that can be very hard to do when you're upset). Finally, we really don't need to be "cordial." Being civil is not only enough--it is essential.
Westie...
Now YOU'RE just lashing-out. You're eloquent. I've seen it before. You didn't need to take a chunk out of Scott like that. I just think you could have done this in a more constructive manner.
To everyone then, disagree with me if you like, but when I hear another controller taking a chunk out of a pilot, that controller and I are going to have a chat. That's the benefit of having done this for so long... I can talk to everybody as a peer. And just in case I haven't been clear, I'm not simply going to tell that controller to keep his or her mouth shut. I'm going to say that this sort of unprofessional behavior suggests to me that some introspection is in order, and that a more productive method of dealing with the anger or frustration might be a good idea. In any case, this sort of outburst makes it harder for controller and pilot alike to do a safe, efficient job.
I've gone on long enough. Sorry about being so verbose...
Dave
However, as a fundamental rule, there should be no tongue-lashing on the radio. I accept Scott's contention that we're all human and subject to emotional outbursts from time to time, but you need to un-key the mic before spewing venom. Having been a union rep, I've represented controllers before the facility manager when corrective action has been taken against the controller on the basis of such an outburst. In these cases I've been an excellent advocate for the controller and used just this sort of reasoning. However, speaking to the controller one-on-one, I've never hesitated to say, "What the hell were you thinking? Knock that **** off!" Almost 30 years ago now, my first ATC trainer told me that controlling aircraft comes down to having a kit full of tools that you're skilled in using, and then selecting the right tool for a given task. It is my position that an angry outburst should not be in that kit.
I've preached this before on this forum, and I'll say it again: when a seasoned pilot or controller screws up it's almost NEVER because he or she is stupid or careless or intent upon being a problem. If any of you would like to witness what it's REALLY like to work with someone who simply follows poorly-developed instinct without regard for rules or common sense I will be happy to lend you my 18 year old son. There is a stark contrast between that experience and the simple errors made by professional aviators. Trust me.
Scott, I don't mean to pick on you here, but a couple of other things (while I'm ranting)... First, you make a point about the controller having had enough with stupid pilot tricks. I understand that. However, doesn't that imply that the controller let a bunch of problems slide by without dealing with them, only to let it all erupt on the guy he happened to be working when he reached the end of his rope? That sort of thing doesn't work in marriage and it doesn't work in aviation. It'll eat a hole in your stomach and ruin what would have been a salvageable career (or relationship). On top of that, it simply isn't fair to the guy who bears the brunt of the outrage which had been fed by pilots he didn't even know. Second, I think the "verbal lashing" versus certificate action dilemma is false. As Westie pointed-out, the vast majority of these things will not result in a loss of certificate for the pilot, and as I'm now pointing-out, the verbal lashing is not acceptable. However, there are a large number of tools in between. We just have to remember to use them (and that can be very hard to do when you're upset). Finally, we really don't need to be "cordial." Being civil is not only enough--it is essential.
Westie...
And when its just a pissy controller with no violation involved? That's about 99.9% of the time when there's a problem... Thanks for the the threat however.... etc, etc...
To everyone then, disagree with me if you like, but when I hear another controller taking a chunk out of a pilot, that controller and I are going to have a chat. That's the benefit of having done this for so long... I can talk to everybody as a peer. And just in case I haven't been clear, I'm not simply going to tell that controller to keep his or her mouth shut. I'm going to say that this sort of unprofessional behavior suggests to me that some introspection is in order, and that a more productive method of dealing with the anger or frustration might be a good idea. In any case, this sort of outburst makes it harder for controller and pilot alike to do a safe, efficient job.
I've gone on long enough. Sorry about being so verbose...
Dave
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Fort Worth ARTCC ZFW
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Dave;
My talking with pilots is not taking a chunk out of them, but some may think so. I try to "educate" on freq if I can. Some may take it as a verbal lashing, but it isn't meant to be. I see them doing something wrong and try to fix it. It is something that as both a safety rep, and an aviation safety conselor take seriously. As to the tone of some, after the XXX amount of folks to get it wrong and getting chewed out by the pilot because I don't accept a readback without a call sign, is basicly what I am talking about... We could talk more <G>...
regards
Scott
My talking with pilots is not taking a chunk out of them, but some may think so. I try to "educate" on freq if I can. Some may take it as a verbal lashing, but it isn't meant to be. I see them doing something wrong and try to fix it. It is something that as both a safety rep, and an aviation safety conselor take seriously. As to the tone of some, after the XXX amount of folks to get it wrong and getting chewed out by the pilot because I don't accept a readback without a call sign, is basicly what I am talking about... We could talk more <G>...
regards
Scott
