Flying from Fairoaks - inside Heathrow CTZ
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The access lanes/local flying areas for Denham, White Waltham and Fairoaks, are hereby notified for the purposes of
Schedule 8, Private Pilots Licence (Aeroplanes), sub-para 2 (c) (ii) and Basic Commercial Pilots Licence (Aeroplanes)
sub-para 3 (g) (ii), of the Air Navigation Order 2005 when there is a flight visibility of at least 3 km;
Schedule 8, Private Pilots Licence (Aeroplanes), sub-para 2 (c) (ii) and Basic Commercial Pilots Licence (Aeroplanes)
sub-para 3 (g) (ii), of the Air Navigation Order 2005 when there is a flight visibility of at least 3 km;
Flight Visibility: The visibility forward from the flight deck of an aircraft in flight.
(ANO)
(ANO)
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AlanM I agree, but the issue is slightly clouded by Rule 24(3), which I agree applies to VFR not SVFR flights, which states that Air Traffic can in some circumstances pass a visibility which is then taken to be the flight visibility.
I cannot find any similar reference to Class A airspace and SVFR flights. Also since Fairoaks is staffed by FISOs none of whom are qualified met observers it must come down to the pilot determining the flight visibility.
I cannot find any similar reference to Class A airspace and SVFR flights. Also since Fairoaks is staffed by FISOs none of whom are qualified met observers it must come down to the pilot determining the flight visibility.
And someone with 'push-on-itis' will always claim it was more than 3km where HE was, even though all official reports say it was less!
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Indeed. Scarey to watch on radar more than 1x twin do it at 800ft from opposite directions when the FISO had gone home..... The beauty of blind calls eh!??!
Same for the LCTR of course - Mnimum In flight Vis of 1000m for the heli routes is needed. Makes you wonder sometimes when LHR/LCY both down to 500m/OVC003!
Same for the LCTR of course - Mnimum In flight Vis of 1000m for the heli routes is needed. Makes you wonder sometimes when LHR/LCY both down to 500m/OVC003!
Last edited by AlanM; 19th Jan 2006 at 15:17.
Just adding my 5 penny worth regarding Mode C. You need to tell that old salt, that he is encouraging people to remove one of the main aviation safety nets (TCAS). Far better to set TCAS off and deal with a bit of paperwork than penetrate CAS and get very close, or even hit some heavy metal. It not only protects the airliner but protects you as well from collision/wake turbelence etc, if you inadvertantly stray.
Whilst paperwork may well be filed on an unauthorised penetration, most professionals in the industry are usually quite forgiving as long as lessons have been learnt, especially if you follow up said mis-demeanour with a telephone call.
Whilst paperwork may well be filed on an unauthorised penetration, most professionals in the industry are usually quite forgiving as long as lessons have been learnt, especially if you follow up said mis-demeanour with a telephone call.
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We operate from Denham, on the other side of Heathrow's Zone from Fairoaks.
We've always been taught to de-select the transponder when recovering to the circuit, in response to this guidance from the CAA;
1.2 In airspace where the operation of transponders is not mandatory pilots of suitably equipped aircraft should comply with
paragraph 2.2 except when remaining within an aerodrome traffic pattern below 3000 ft agl.
I select 7000 'on' during the climbout once outside the Denham LFA and 'standby' upon re-entering it. There can easily be 5 or 6 a/c in the LFA one way or another and I'm sure they just appear as a mish-mash on the display, hardly helpful. We also have Northout overflights @ 1,500' - I guess they've been assigned a code and it's going to be totally obscured by a load of '7000' returns if we leave our boxes on.
That's a good, positive reasoning for NOT having the transponder on - much better than the 'don't get a bust' which is really bad airmanship (as already stated!)
Cheers,
The Odd One
We've always been taught to de-select the transponder when recovering to the circuit, in response to this guidance from the CAA;
1.2 In airspace where the operation of transponders is not mandatory pilots of suitably equipped aircraft should comply with
paragraph 2.2 except when remaining within an aerodrome traffic pattern below 3000 ft agl.
I select 7000 'on' during the climbout once outside the Denham LFA and 'standby' upon re-entering it. There can easily be 5 or 6 a/c in the LFA one way or another and I'm sure they just appear as a mish-mash on the display, hardly helpful. We also have Northout overflights @ 1,500' - I guess they've been assigned a code and it's going to be totally obscured by a load of '7000' returns if we leave our boxes on.
That's a good, positive reasoning for NOT having the transponder on - much better than the 'don't get a bust' which is really bad airmanship (as already stated!)
Cheers,
The Odd One
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Odd One, you have been misguided and your teachers are out of date. You have no 'good, positive reason for NOT having the transponder on'. See:
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/srg_gad_gasil2002_04.pdf
Re. Transponder use in the circuit:
Whenever possible, pilots with a serviceable transponder should select and transmit code 7000 with altitude reporting (mode C) at all times, unless one of the following conditions apply: .................. The aircraft is operating within a visual circuit and local procedures require the transponder to be set to standby
See also SSR OPERATING PROCEDURES:
http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/pubs/aip/pdf/enr/2010602.PDF
It is essential that any wayward aircraft are immediately as conspicuous as possible in order that avoiding action may be taken. Unless you can quote Denham procedures to the contrary set A7000 with Alt whenever possible for everyone's good. Please pass this on to your instructors.The 'mish-mash', as you call it, is better than nothing at all, which is what you are advocating.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/srg_gad_gasil2002_04.pdf
Re. Transponder use in the circuit:
Whenever possible, pilots with a serviceable transponder should select and transmit code 7000 with altitude reporting (mode C) at all times, unless one of the following conditions apply: .................. The aircraft is operating within a visual circuit and local procedures require the transponder to be set to standby
See also SSR OPERATING PROCEDURES:
http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/pubs/aip/pdf/enr/2010602.PDF
It is essential that any wayward aircraft are immediately as conspicuous as possible in order that avoiding action may be taken. Unless you can quote Denham procedures to the contrary set A7000 with Alt whenever possible for everyone's good. Please pass this on to your instructors.The 'mish-mash', as you call it, is better than nothing at all, which is what you are advocating.
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I agree with TDM. It is virtually impossible (until it is too late) to see a wayward maggot trying to find LM/TF/LD who strays out of or through the LFA.
There are also lots of fast twins/helis that are TCAS equipped and rely on you showing. Don't worry about the 7000s garbling - if I want to ident you I will give you a discrete code.
There are also lots of fast twins/helis that are TCAS equipped and rely on you showing. Don't worry about the 7000s garbling - if I want to ident you I will give you a discrete code.
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Use of the access lanes/local flying areas for Denham, White Waltham and Fairoaks is subject to special procedures. Effectively they are special concessions for the user within Class A airspace.
The moment an aircraft strays from those access lanes/local flying areas into the CTR proper it becomes unknown traffic and ATC must establish 5nm or 5000ft separation immediately, which is pretty difficult to say the least. Please play the game.
The moment an aircraft strays from those access lanes/local flying areas into the CTR proper it becomes unknown traffic and ATC must establish 5nm or 5000ft separation immediately, which is pretty difficult to say the least. Please play the game.
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So to conclude:
Fairoaks has a dispensation for aircraft to arrive and depart based on the following;
1. The ceiling height of the arrival and departure is 1400ft to ensure that traffic inbound / outbaound to Farnborough has adequate seperation
2. The 3km visability rule applies, as standard.
It IS considered good airmanship to ModeC 7000 at all times whilst airborne. If this becomes confusing to a controller- or you place yourself in danger the controller will either ask you to ident, or assign you a unique transponder code.
Lets hope we get some better weather this weekend so I can get up there and see all of this with my own eyes. Mets aren't looking good at the moment!
Fairoaks has a dispensation for aircraft to arrive and depart based on the following;
1. The ceiling height of the arrival and departure is 1400ft to ensure that traffic inbound / outbaound to Farnborough has adequate seperation
2. The 3km visability rule applies, as standard.
It IS considered good airmanship to ModeC 7000 at all times whilst airborne. If this becomes confusing to a controller- or you place yourself in danger the controller will either ask you to ident, or assign you a unique transponder code.
Lets hope we get some better weather this weekend so I can get up there and see all of this with my own eyes. Mets aren't looking good at the moment!
Yeah but look out the window right now!!
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Another good reason why the visibility at Farnborough and Heathrow have no bearing on what is taking place at Fairoaks arose this morning.
The visibility at Fairoaks both from unofficial observations from the tower and from the magic box that measures visibility was 6000m, at around 1120. At the same time the visibility at Farnborough was 0150m in fog and at Heathrow it was 0450m in fog, which resulted in the Fairoaks visual circuit being active whilst Farnborough inbounds were diverting.
Slightly unusual since it is more common to have Fairoaks unusable due to fog whilst Farnborough and Heathrow are given reasonable visibility.
The visibility at Fairoaks both from unofficial observations from the tower and from the magic box that measures visibility was 6000m, at around 1120. At the same time the visibility at Farnborough was 0150m in fog and at Heathrow it was 0450m in fog, which resulted in the Fairoaks visual circuit being active whilst Farnborough inbounds were diverting.
Slightly unusual since it is more common to have Fairoaks unusable due to fog whilst Farnborough and Heathrow are given reasonable visibility.
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Mode C
Going back to the point on transponder in the circuit, everybodys point regarding it being good airmanship to keep it on is taken aboard,,, but the amount of times EGLF call to say could particular aircraft in the circuit squawk standby beacuse it would be setting off the TCAS in the aircraft on the ILS at EGLF!!!. Just to throw a spanner in the works!
Going back to joining procedures, simple version, for your squwk do what EGLF say eg standby, 7000 etc
Give Fairoaks Information a call on 123.425 about 5 miles out.
The easiest way for a first timer is to approach from the south between Ockham (vor OCK) and Woking at 1400 QFE.
For 24 desend on the dead side for a 1000 left hand circuit and join crosswind or early downwind.
For 06 again through the overhead at 1400 and desend directly onto the crosswind or early downwind leg watching for any other aircraft in the left hand circuit. (no dead side due to right hand helicopter circuits)
All circuits can be variable directions but are genrally left hand for fixed wing
And the most important thing.... if you have a problem or a question ASK! They will not bite your head off if you need help.
Some good things to look for if you want to check your position is the large tower block in woking, the kidney shaped building (huge) at the south east corner of the airfield , The old building north east of the airfield and the bright yellow hangar doors!
Anything to add ACFI? Oh and totally agree with the point about the M25 and M3.
Regards Dannyboyblue
Going back to joining procedures, simple version, for your squwk do what EGLF say eg standby, 7000 etc
Give Fairoaks Information a call on 123.425 about 5 miles out.
The easiest way for a first timer is to approach from the south between Ockham (vor OCK) and Woking at 1400 QFE.
For 24 desend on the dead side for a 1000 left hand circuit and join crosswind or early downwind.
For 06 again through the overhead at 1400 and desend directly onto the crosswind or early downwind leg watching for any other aircraft in the left hand circuit. (no dead side due to right hand helicopter circuits)
All circuits can be variable directions but are genrally left hand for fixed wing
And the most important thing.... if you have a problem or a question ASK! They will not bite your head off if you need help.
Some good things to look for if you want to check your position is the large tower block in woking, the kidney shaped building (huge) at the south east corner of the airfield , The old building north east of the airfield and the bright yellow hangar doors!
Anything to add ACFI? Oh and totally agree with the point about the M25 and M3.
Regards Dannyboyblue
Not only Fairoaks & Farnborough affected by the transponders, it also happens at Redhill against Gatwick traffic.
