EGSS zone intrusion
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EGSS zone intrusion
Apparently a solo student on a nav ex from Lincolnshire strayed into the zone causing mayhem. The press may have got hold of this story. Is there any truth in it?
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Whether this report is true or not the high number of CAS infringements we are experiencing these days is causing concern for all agencies controlling CAS, be it zones, TMAs or airways. As soon as rogue traffic enters CAS the controller concerned has to do his best to maintain the required separation from that unpredictable target often disrupting his traffic plan. Because safety is still the number one priority the departures and arrival at an airport may be suspended for a period or climb and descent clearances amended in the TMAs and airways to provide or maintain safety margins.
Concerted efforts are now being made to find out the number of airspace infringements and the true scale of the problem today with the aim of implementing strategies to reduce their number and thereby increasing safety for all involved.
One suggestion is to publish CAS infringements reports duly sanitised to remove identifying features so that we can all learn from them and be more aware of this problem. Any thoughts on the matter?
Concerted efforts are now being made to find out the number of airspace infringements and the true scale of the problem today with the aim of implementing strategies to reduce their number and thereby increasing safety for all involved.
One suggestion is to publish CAS infringements reports duly sanitised to remove identifying features so that we can all learn from them and be more aware of this problem. Any thoughts on the matter?
Last edited by SwanFIS; 21st Dec 2005 at 12:08.
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Vlad - it would be a great help for SWANFIS - if I linked to the incorrect thread - if you could provide some more info rather than an 'enigmatic' post as there is a 'focus' on zone intrusion at the moment.
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BOAC,
He probably was not being so enigmatic. Infringements happen around the LTMA airfields and airspace so regularly that he probably can't remember which one is which.
The total since APRIL 1st is now over 200 and is going up every day!
When will SRG do something about it?
He probably was not being so enigmatic. Infringements happen around the LTMA airfields and airspace so regularly that he probably can't remember which one is which.
The total since APRIL 1st is now over 200 and is going up every day!
When will SRG do something about it?
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zkdli, yes they do and that was why I was interested.
NATS have set up a working group to try and get an idea of the true scale of the problem that we are faced with. A while ago the CAA published the Fly On Track report that had a number of recommendations, some good some not so good, but left it at that. Although the AIWG does still exist NATS have taken the initiative and are now looking at varied ways to reduce the number and severity of CAS infringements and thereby increase safety.
There will be a concerted effort in the new year to contact pilots and make them more aware of the problems and disruption that infringements can cause. This will be done through visits to airfields by ATCOs, articles in magazines (Flyer is one of them) and hopefully a CD along the lines of the very successful Level Bust production.
Any suggestions either posted here or pmd to me will be greatly appreciated by all concerned.
David R
NATS have set up a working group to try and get an idea of the true scale of the problem that we are faced with. A while ago the CAA published the Fly On Track report that had a number of recommendations, some good some not so good, but left it at that. Although the AIWG does still exist NATS have taken the initiative and are now looking at varied ways to reduce the number and severity of CAS infringements and thereby increase safety.
There will be a concerted effort in the new year to contact pilots and make them more aware of the problems and disruption that infringements can cause. This will be done through visits to airfields by ATCOs, articles in magazines (Flyer is one of them) and hopefully a CD along the lines of the very successful Level Bust production.
Any suggestions either posted here or pmd to me will be greatly appreciated by all concerned.
David R
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I believe the aircraft was a light piston military trainer T67. it happened this week. Not the incident that BOAC refers to. PM me if you wish and I will be happy to tell you what I've been told.
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I know for a fact that an Infringements CD has been produced at LTCC.
This details a total of 28 selected infringement incidents at all the major TC airfields during 2004/5, and includes radar examples (obviously depersonalised - only the month, year and affected zone are identified), and has been produced to the same high standard as the TRUCE, Safety Kiosk, and Level Best presentations those at LTCC are all familiar with....
I was under the impression that this presentation would be touring airfields and flying clubs this winter, led by selected TC ATCOs.
This details a total of 28 selected infringement incidents at all the major TC airfields during 2004/5, and includes radar examples (obviously depersonalised - only the month, year and affected zone are identified), and has been produced to the same high standard as the TRUCE, Safety Kiosk, and Level Best presentations those at LTCC are all familiar with....
I was under the impression that this presentation would be touring airfields and flying clubs this winter, led by selected TC ATCOs.
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I know that this is being looked into by the systems guys. Its fairly easy to model airspace in computer terms so it could be possible to fix. However comma! How many are none squawkers, how many are on 7000 with no Mode C? We need altitude data for an accurate assessment of where in 3D a flight is. Not easy!
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Deadcalm, yes you are correct TC have produced a CD that will be presented by ATCOs at GA airfields.
It willl not, however, only be TC guys talking about the problem in the south east going out and about with this presentation. An infringement has the same impact on ATC operations and safety wherever it happens in the UK so a number of other ATC units will use this as a means of graphically presenting and explaining to pilots the problems that GA CAS infringements cause. This is a UK wide problem and is being targeted as such.
It willl not, however, only be TC guys talking about the problem in the south east going out and about with this presentation. An infringement has the same impact on ATC operations and safety wherever it happens in the UK so a number of other ATC units will use this as a means of graphically presenting and explaining to pilots the problems that GA CAS infringements cause. This is a UK wide problem and is being targeted as such.
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Just like to highlight the fact that it is NATS that is taking this initiative and therefore targeting areas where infringement is a problem to airspace under its control.
Shame the CAA is lagging behind.
Shame the CAA is lagging behind.
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I don't think any pilot would on purpose infringe any controlled airspace on purpose unless an emergency of, if this happened and that failed etc.
How to stop it I don't know. The lessons in a PPL are already full, you have people with 3 xcountry trips going solo. And even the "good" students have brain farts and head off in the wrong direction.
GPS is frowned apon and not allowed to be used on solo x-countrys. This could be changed by the CAA, a gps capable of Zone warnings would help.
A special # for solo x-country students? Might forwarn the ATCO that a potential rogue is about.
The mode C debate is a problem due to some highly qualified indviduals not turning it on due to "police actions" if they cock up, to aircraft which haven't got it fitted or can't be bothered to get it fixed when it breaks.
The yanks have got mode charlie zones where you need to have C to go into it, still uncontrolled and don't have to talk to anyone . They can and do inforce it with a FAA bod waiting for you when you get on the ground if you keep mum and don't talk to anyone.
MJ
How to stop it I don't know. The lessons in a PPL are already full, you have people with 3 xcountry trips going solo. And even the "good" students have brain farts and head off in the wrong direction.
GPS is frowned apon and not allowed to be used on solo x-countrys. This could be changed by the CAA, a gps capable of Zone warnings would help.
A special # for solo x-country students? Might forwarn the ATCO that a potential rogue is about.
The mode C debate is a problem due to some highly qualified indviduals not turning it on due to "police actions" if they cock up, to aircraft which haven't got it fitted or can't be bothered to get it fixed when it breaks.
The yanks have got mode charlie zones where you need to have C to go into it, still uncontrolled and don't have to talk to anyone . They can and do inforce it with a FAA bod waiting for you when you get on the ground if you keep mum and don't talk to anyone.
MJ
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Sorry mad jock but its not just a low hours/trainee problem
time and time again we encounter people that climb out of Nottingham Tollerton, turn south and climb and then think about asking for Zone transit-by which time they are normally on the extended centerline!
if anything the low hours pilots in the area Know to call first
is there a correlation between the infringements down south and the percieved lack of access?
time and time again we encounter people that climb out of Nottingham Tollerton, turn south and climb and then think about asking for Zone transit-by which time they are normally on the extended centerline!
if anything the low hours pilots in the area Know to call first
is there a correlation between the infringements down south and the percieved lack of access?
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"Is there a correlation between the infringements down south and the perceived lack of access?"
Almost professional, there certainly are "choke points" and a fair smattering of Class A down here that does exacerbate the problem but does not fully account for the imbalance in figures.
As in the case you mention it is not just the low hours pilot who infringes, the causes are many and varied, and it is that very fact that makes the task of reducing them complex.
Almost professional, there certainly are "choke points" and a fair smattering of Class A down here that does exacerbate the problem but does not fully account for the imbalance in figures.
As in the case you mention it is not just the low hours pilot who infringes, the causes are many and varied, and it is that very fact that makes the task of reducing them complex.
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More currency then than low hours?
It takes very few hours to keep a SEP valid. And unless the person needs a check with an examiner. The required 1 hour with an instructor flight isn't long enough to do any real nav if you do the other stuff your meant to do.
You can have valid PPL SEP holders with less than 30 hours in 5 years and no check on there navigating flying about.
MJ
Edit to add the PPL bit is a bit misleading it can be any lic type. It could be a commercial pilot who is not current flying VFR who makes the mistake
It takes very few hours to keep a SEP valid. And unless the person needs a check with an examiner. The required 1 hour with an instructor flight isn't long enough to do any real nav if you do the other stuff your meant to do.
You can have valid PPL SEP holders with less than 30 hours in 5 years and no check on there navigating flying about.
MJ
Edit to add the PPL bit is a bit misleading it can be any lic type. It could be a commercial pilot who is not current flying VFR who makes the mistake
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As I've commented in the "uninvited guests" thread, it isn't always the low hours PPL's that get it wrong, there are other reasons for the failures.
I'd go as far as to say that GPS should be much more encouraged, as should a more reasonable approach to GA IFR and instrument ratings, which might mean better qualified and less dangerous pilots. There is a caveat that the GPS needs to be a good quality aviation GPS, with a user interface that means it can be operated easily in the air, but that's another issue for another thread in a different forum.
I've done both European and American training, and the FAA Instrument rating, if correctly taught, (and in the LA basin it has to be, as there's so much IFR traffic around the place) is every bit as valid as a CAA IR, in practical terms.
OK, the standards for the test might be slightly different, but the underlying requirement is to be able to get the aircraft safely and accurately from point A to point B in IFR without putting others at risk.
Yes, students have to learn to fly VFR, so they can handle the thing if everthing goes belly up and the instruments can't be relied on, but at the same time, if they had a better understanding of how to use the IFR instruments to navigate at an earlier stage of the syllabus, then there's a better chance that they'd not end up where they're not supposed to be.
I still have bad dreams about that flight 20 years ago, and while some of that was outside of my control, a different structure to the training might have helped me prevent what became a nightmare flight from being so badly wrong.
To solve this problem needs input from NATS, from CAA, and from the training organisations, and it may well need some fundamental changes to the way training is done. Given the way that GA is changing anyway, is that such a bad thing?
I'd go as far as to say that GPS should be much more encouraged, as should a more reasonable approach to GA IFR and instrument ratings, which might mean better qualified and less dangerous pilots. There is a caveat that the GPS needs to be a good quality aviation GPS, with a user interface that means it can be operated easily in the air, but that's another issue for another thread in a different forum.
I've done both European and American training, and the FAA Instrument rating, if correctly taught, (and in the LA basin it has to be, as there's so much IFR traffic around the place) is every bit as valid as a CAA IR, in practical terms.
OK, the standards for the test might be slightly different, but the underlying requirement is to be able to get the aircraft safely and accurately from point A to point B in IFR without putting others at risk.
Yes, students have to learn to fly VFR, so they can handle the thing if everthing goes belly up and the instruments can't be relied on, but at the same time, if they had a better understanding of how to use the IFR instruments to navigate at an earlier stage of the syllabus, then there's a better chance that they'd not end up where they're not supposed to be.
I still have bad dreams about that flight 20 years ago, and while some of that was outside of my control, a different structure to the training might have helped me prevent what became a nightmare flight from being so badly wrong.
To solve this problem needs input from NATS, from CAA, and from the training organisations, and it may well need some fundamental changes to the way training is done. Given the way that GA is changing anyway, is that such a bad thing?
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In the Luton - Stansted - Heathrow triangle, a lack of LARS contributes to infringements. A lot of visiting ac to Elstree, Denham, Booker etc etc negotiating fairly complex (to a new pilot) airspace boundaries tend to be the culprits. Don't know what the answer is though as none of these units have the capacity to offer this service (?).
I also understand that quite a few "minor" zone infringements are not recorded, as filling in the paper work would become a full time job! So maybe the statistics are higher than actually published.
I also understand that quite a few "minor" zone infringements are not recorded, as filling in the paper work would become a full time job! So maybe the statistics are higher than actually published.
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As an essex and luton controller you can but ask for a service and see what they say, if we have the spare capacity we will help.
I would urge pilots that are in any doubt of thier position in that area to call one of the units. Whether it be essex, luton or thames.
I would urge pilots that are in any doubt of thier position in that area to call one of the units. Whether it be essex, luton or thames.