Filing flight plans in the air...
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Filing flight plans in the air...
Recently did a long training cross-country with some of my students... landed at Beaufort West and didn't have any facilities to fax flight plans for our flight to George the next day.
So we tried to file them in the air on the FIR frequency but were told that we can't file it because it is an operational frequency... I was always under the impression that you can file in the air, as long as you do so at least 10 min before entering the airspace...
Can anyone please tell me what the correct procedure is in a case like that?
Cape Town East was very accomodating though and made special arrangements for us... thanks guys
So we tried to file them in the air on the FIR frequency but were told that we can't file it because it is an operational frequency... I was always under the impression that you can file in the air, as long as you do so at least 10 min before entering the airspace...
Can anyone please tell me what the correct procedure is in a case like that?
Cape Town East was very accomodating though and made special arrangements for us... thanks guys
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Don't know about UK...though I tend to agree with justafew! In the states, I air filed all the time - both VFR and IFR. VFR had to be filed with an FSS, but IFR can be filed with center or approach if you're just trying to get back into an airport. IF they're busy, then you also have to go back to FSS, but I never had that happen and most of my flying there was in the SFO area.
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AFIL
Hi there Jlo, hope the following info helps.
1) I mean what " freq " is not operational. It has to be operational otherwise how are you going to get a service.
2) Can you tell us what "freq" it was.
3) All ATC's in there basic training and student pilots doing there restricted radio license gets taught about a "AFIL" (I am sure they still call it that), that is when there is no telephone or fax line nearby to file a FPL and you can then call the nearest ATC centre on "freq" to file a AFIL just as long as you remain clear of controlled airspace or as you said it do it 10 min before entering contolled airspace, untill the FPL is in the system. I am not sure about the time if it is definitely 10 min, but I am sure some one can also confirm this, but I also think there is distance also involved.
Cheers
because it is an operational frequency
on the FIR frequency
3) All ATC's in there basic training and student pilots doing there restricted radio license gets taught about a "AFIL" (I am sure they still call it that), that is when there is no telephone or fax line nearby to file a FPL and you can then call the nearest ATC centre on "freq" to file a AFIL just as long as you remain clear of controlled airspace or as you said it do it 10 min before entering contolled airspace, untill the FPL is in the system. I am not sure about the time if it is definitely 10 min, but I am sure some one can also confirm this, but I also think there is distance also involved.
Cheers
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I have never been able to acept a full flight plan on the RT due to my operational requirement and RT loading. I can take a partial flight plan to allow an airspace transit.
I cannot speak for other parts of the country or other countries but have only ever known them to be declined at our unit as we are too busy to accept them.
I cannot speak for other parts of the country or other countries but have only ever known them to be declined at our unit as we are too busy to accept them.
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flower,
I hope that you are not talking about the FIR frequency.
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There are two issues here.
1. It is possible to file a flight plan in flight. This is done where as flower says, a flight plan must be filed for entry into or a crossing of controlled airspace when a clearance is required. One can also file a full flight plan if it is necessary however, that leads to the second issue;
2. In general most countries require flights that either need to file a flight plan or choose to file a flight plan for a flight to do so before departure. Every country also requires that before commencing a flight to an aerodrome the commander must ensure that the facilities available are suficient to meet their needs. If you need to fax a flight plan then it seems logical to ensure that either a) there is a fax machine available at the aerodrome or b) one makes alternative arrangements.
Of course if you found out on arrival that the fax machine was U/S then there is only the option to file in the air if three are no telephone facilities.
Finally remember that in many places the "FIR" frequency is operated by controllers who are at the same time providing a service to Airways traffic (in controlled airspace). No ATCO is going to use R/T time to get your flight plan if it could disadvantage any flight that has filed a plan in the normal way.
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Just a question for people who fly State side - when you file a full flight plan in the air do you file it with FSS or with an ARTCC?
Regards,
DFC
I hope that you are not talking about the FIR frequency.
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There are two issues here.
1. It is possible to file a flight plan in flight. This is done where as flower says, a flight plan must be filed for entry into or a crossing of controlled airspace when a clearance is required. One can also file a full flight plan if it is necessary however, that leads to the second issue;
2. In general most countries require flights that either need to file a flight plan or choose to file a flight plan for a flight to do so before departure. Every country also requires that before commencing a flight to an aerodrome the commander must ensure that the facilities available are suficient to meet their needs. If you need to fax a flight plan then it seems logical to ensure that either a) there is a fax machine available at the aerodrome or b) one makes alternative arrangements.
Of course if you found out on arrival that the fax machine was U/S then there is only the option to file in the air if three are no telephone facilities.
Finally remember that in many places the "FIR" frequency is operated by controllers who are at the same time providing a service to Airways traffic (in controlled airspace). No ATCO is going to use R/T time to get your flight plan if it could disadvantage any flight that has filed a plan in the normal way.
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Just a question for people who fly State side - when you file a full flight plan in the air do you file it with FSS or with an ARTCC?
Regards,
DFC
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We can file full flight plans over R/T to almost any FIS-unit - don't know about controlling units.
The only case I can think of is weather deteriorating and you need to change from VFR to IFR, for which we need to file a full flight plan.
If we are still on the ground (could be at home) and there is no fax or computer with internet available, we usually call the neareast airport with an open briefing office and file it verbally - otherwise we call briefing at Copenhagen - they are always there, and their desk is 5-15 meters from the controllers.
The only case I can think of is weather deteriorating and you need to change from VFR to IFR, for which we need to file a full flight plan.
If we are still on the ground (could be at home) and there is no fax or computer with internet available, we usually call the neareast airport with an open briefing office and file it verbally - otherwise we call briefing at Copenhagen - they are always there, and their desk is 5-15 meters from the controllers.
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In the London FIR the FIS (London Information) is provided by Area FISOs not controllers so we do not have that conflict of interest between control and information. We are providing a service and the filing and transmition of an AFIL is part of the wide ranging service that we provide.
Scottish FIS is partly provided by airways controllers so their service may differ from ours.
Scottish FIS is partly provided by airways controllers so their service may differ from ours.
Last edited by SwanFIS; 20th Dec 2005 at 16:46.
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Well said swanfis, too many ATCOs that I work with forget that we provide a service.
Haven't had my nose in the books lately but from memory all we need over the air is suffient information to provide the service requested and not the full plan.
Haven't had my nose in the books lately but from memory all we need over the air is suffient information to provide the service requested and not the full plan.
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too many ATCOs that I work with forget that we provide a service.
I can willingly take a partial flight plan to enable a transit but anything else should be done prior to the flight.
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Hi DFC. Sounds pretty much the same as in the UK. Generally, you would air file with an FSS. However, this is not always an available option (some areas you just cannot contact an FSS by radio), in which case a "partial" clearance can be received by ARTCC, i.e. airspace transition or approach. An alternative (to FSS) is also to try Flight Watch. I have filed full plans with ARTCC, but they were abbreviated clearances - generally in the Tower Enroute Clearance category.
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Hi Leo20
We landed at Beaufort-West after changing to 124.8 from the Cape Town Central FIR Freq (and there is nothing but Karoo there... so a fax machine is too much to ask). When we took off the next morning we contacted them again and were told that we are on the wrong frequency and that we cannot file in the air. Then we called Cape Town East and they also didn't accept it. Guess we should have phoned to file that morning, but we didn't think it was necessary as we thought filing over the air is allowed...
We landed at Beaufort-West after changing to 124.8 from the Cape Town Central FIR Freq (and there is nothing but Karoo there... so a fax machine is too much to ask). When we took off the next morning we contacted them again and were told that we are on the wrong frequency and that we cannot file in the air. Then we called Cape Town East and they also didn't accept it. Guess we should have phoned to file that morning, but we didn't think it was necessary as we thought filing over the air is allowed...
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Re: Filing flight plans in the air...
Jlo
Here's some info from AIC 42.1 that might help. It contains all the requirements for filing flightplans.
The whole AIC is available here:
http://www.caa.co.za/resource%20center/AIC'S/42-1.pdf
A small part:
14. Methods of filing flight plans.
14.1 A flight plan may be filed in person, by telephone, by FAX or over the radio channels. A flight plan will only be accep-ted over the radio channels when the point of departure is at such a distance from the nearest ATSU that filing it by telephone will involve booking a trunkline telephone call.
Λ14.2 When it is desired to file a flight plan by telephone (CAR 91.03.4) or over the radio channels it must be prepared in advance in the prescribed manner. The flight plan must then be read off to the ATSU in the correct sequence. Before reading out the flight plan the ATSU must be advised that a flight plan is to be filed.
14.3 Pilots must note that merely passing a few details of a flight does not constitute submitting a flight plan and does not ensure that search and rescue action will be provided for the flight or that other ATSU’s concerned will be advised of the flight.
Hope it helps.
Here's some info from AIC 42.1 that might help. It contains all the requirements for filing flightplans.
The whole AIC is available here:
http://www.caa.co.za/resource%20center/AIC'S/42-1.pdf
A small part:
14. Methods of filing flight plans.
14.1 A flight plan may be filed in person, by telephone, by FAX or over the radio channels. A flight plan will only be accep-ted over the radio channels when the point of departure is at such a distance from the nearest ATSU that filing it by telephone will involve booking a trunkline telephone call.
Λ14.2 When it is desired to file a flight plan by telephone (CAR 91.03.4) or over the radio channels it must be prepared in advance in the prescribed manner. The flight plan must then be read off to the ATSU in the correct sequence. Before reading out the flight plan the ATSU must be advised that a flight plan is to be filed.
14.3 Pilots must note that merely passing a few details of a flight does not constitute submitting a flight plan and does not ensure that search and rescue action will be provided for the flight or that other ATSU’s concerned will be advised of the flight.
Hope it helps.
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Re: Filing flight plans in the air...
Something else to bear in mind....from an un-manned airfield to a manned one you don`t need a flight plan, unless you require search and rescue in the remote part of your flight, but that brings other factors into play such as r/t contact with atc etc.....just something to remember next time you`re in the same predicament.
Unless the boys are busy and you have the fpl filled and ready to read in the correct format.....they should take it on air.
Happy flying
Unless the boys are busy and you have the fpl filled and ready to read in the correct format.....they should take it on air.
Happy flying
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Re: Filing flight plans in the air...
DFC;
You can do it either way in the US, but if I get someone wanting to file IFR, I would rather that they talk with FSS since they should be getting the weather and the NOTAMS for what they are filing. They will get that from them and not from me. Also if you file the IFR correctly, it takes up a lot of time on the freq. especially when you have to play 20 questions with the pilot to get all the required info...
regards
Scott H. Voigt
NATCA Southwest Region
Safety and Technology Chairman
You can do it either way in the US, but if I get someone wanting to file IFR, I would rather that they talk with FSS since they should be getting the weather and the NOTAMS for what they are filing. They will get that from them and not from me. Also if you file the IFR correctly, it takes up a lot of time on the freq. especially when you have to play 20 questions with the pilot to get all the required info...
regards
Scott H. Voigt
NATCA Southwest Region
Safety and Technology Chairman
