Wx Avoidance
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Diabolo
Would that be that you chaps speak english on the flight deck and reserve your use of French for your radio transmissions? Again, further enhancing flight safety!
Hip hip hooray!
We take with us time to time one ATCO on jump ride. They are ussually very suprised about what is going on up here.
Hip hip hooray!
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fly bhoy
WX conditions are forecast, detail print-outs of actual situation are available[ in colour at Swanwick], and of course pilot reports are invaluable.
With all this information a controller can be prepared and anticipate.....and can be ready to allow the "avoid turns" by making space.
You make space by restricting traffic using methods appropriate to the type of airspace you work with, whether that is increased departure interval or sector flow reduction or whatever....but some-one has to be big enough to make the call and justify the reasoning. One problem for the controller is that if all the measures necessary are in fact implimented the WX problem becomes a non-event and the skill and expertise that made that non-event possible brands said controller as less than efficient.
Hindsight is wonderful isn't it?
Back to Max's situation .......was it or was it not acceptable?
With all this information a controller can be prepared and anticipate.....and can be ready to allow the "avoid turns" by making space.
You make space by restricting traffic using methods appropriate to the type of airspace you work with, whether that is increased departure interval or sector flow reduction or whatever....but some-one has to be big enough to make the call and justify the reasoning. One problem for the controller is that if all the measures necessary are in fact implimented the WX problem becomes a non-event and the skill and expertise that made that non-event possible brands said controller as less than efficient.
Hindsight is wonderful isn't it?
Back to Max's situation .......was it or was it not acceptable?
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Seems once again, that there are too many pilots who either haven't visited the major ATC centre they fly through and don't have a clue what problems ATC have in normal, let alone bad weather conditions. As one poster has said, we've been after active wx radar, available on the displays, for years now and still another year goes by without NATS providing it. Why? Cost! And with the new CAA reductions in our charges how would we pay for it?
Please, please, please file MOR's (both ATCOs and pilots), submit safety reports to your company, complain to your Chief Pilot, complain to the NATS CEO, complain to the Airline Group, complain to BALPA, write to CHIRP, complain to SRG, complain to Mrs Dunwoody & Mr Darling. Complain as loudly as you can. Do something about it!
Perhaps one day someone will listen and we won't have to watch airplanes hurtling towards each other, both trying to avoid weather.
Please, please, please file MOR's (both ATCOs and pilots), submit safety reports to your company, complain to your Chief Pilot, complain to the NATS CEO, complain to the Airline Group, complain to BALPA, write to CHIRP, complain to SRG, complain to Mrs Dunwoody & Mr Darling. Complain as loudly as you can. Do something about it!
Perhaps one day someone will listen and we won't have to watch airplanes hurtling towards each other, both trying to avoid weather.
This thread was going well till the inevitable turf pissing match started.
To the poster who said that we we now suffering from an underfunded NATs. Don't fly in your neck of the woods, and can't reply to the larger issue of funding. What I can say is that airline pilots should never have to rely upon ATC for the WX. Its nice to glean a bit of tactical info from you chaps as to the larger picture, but no pilot should rely wholly on ATC.
As to turns around WX, you are the PIC and sometimes you need to make a turn in the absence of ATC approval. Make sure all other options are pressed first. Remember that ATC at times has operational priorities that are sometimes not the same as ours.
To the poster who said that we we now suffering from an underfunded NATs. Don't fly in your neck of the woods, and can't reply to the larger issue of funding. What I can say is that airline pilots should never have to rely upon ATC for the WX. Its nice to glean a bit of tactical info from you chaps as to the larger picture, but no pilot should rely wholly on ATC.
As to turns around WX, you are the PIC and sometimes you need to make a turn in the absence of ATC approval. Make sure all other options are pressed first. Remember that ATC at times has operational priorities that are sometimes not the same as ours.
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055166k
The reasons you give this time are a lot more relevant than your initial ones, where you seemed to be blaming what appears to have become the "fallback" excuse for anything nowadays - the training scheme. That's another debate altogether though, but I feel that immediately pointing the finger of blame here is jumping to conclusions.
As you say, someone has to be big enough to make the decision to impose flow and i'm not sure, but is it the supervisor's decision to make or the controller's? Either way, by the time the decision has been made it could've been too late and too many aircraft could have been committed to the sector. It therefore could turn out that its got nothing to do with "truncated and absolute minimal ATCO training", "interest in aviation "things" no longer a job qualification" or even "shallow experience/awareness base leading to inflexibility". Don't get me wrong, it could very well be the case that inexperience played a part here, but until specifics are known I would say that its wrong to point the finger at anything!!!
For what its worth, I would say max probably shouldn't have decided to accept responsibility for his own separation as it sets a dangerous precedent, albeit in exceptional circumstances, of pilots turning without consent and if they all decided to do that there's a fair chance there'd be carnage. On the flip side however, he/she has only one concern and thats the safety of his/her aircraft so I can understand why they did it. If weather radar was available to the controller then it could all have been avoided as it would've been obvious to them long before the requests for turns started coming in!! As you say though, hindsight is wonderful!!!
FB
The reasons you give this time are a lot more relevant than your initial ones, where you seemed to be blaming what appears to have become the "fallback" excuse for anything nowadays - the training scheme. That's another debate altogether though, but I feel that immediately pointing the finger of blame here is jumping to conclusions.
As you say, someone has to be big enough to make the decision to impose flow and i'm not sure, but is it the supervisor's decision to make or the controller's? Either way, by the time the decision has been made it could've been too late and too many aircraft could have been committed to the sector. It therefore could turn out that its got nothing to do with "truncated and absolute minimal ATCO training", "interest in aviation "things" no longer a job qualification" or even "shallow experience/awareness base leading to inflexibility". Don't get me wrong, it could very well be the case that inexperience played a part here, but until specifics are known I would say that its wrong to point the finger at anything!!!
For what its worth, I would say max probably shouldn't have decided to accept responsibility for his own separation as it sets a dangerous precedent, albeit in exceptional circumstances, of pilots turning without consent and if they all decided to do that there's a fair chance there'd be carnage. On the flip side however, he/she has only one concern and thats the safety of his/her aircraft so I can understand why they did it. If weather radar was available to the controller then it could all have been avoided as it would've been obvious to them long before the requests for turns started coming in!! As you say though, hindsight is wonderful!!!
FB
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Many thanks for all that have responded.I have no doubt that the set of circumstances were unusual to say the least.I have visited west drayton in the past and have a good respect for controllers and I think that was the main reason for my post that I had to manouver, albeit without consent so the confliction is not lost on me.If any lessons can be gained by interested parties then it will continue to be debated as a what if scenario.
Regards,Max.
Regards,Max.
Beady Eye
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Wx Radar
Weather radar is actively being looked at by NATS but there are VERY few COTS examples out there. EHAM has one which is displayed on the radar screen and on SIS. However that type of display may prove very difficult to implement because the regulators will undoubtedly take a keen interest in displaying something which could potentially mask the primary function of the radar display, to show aircraft targets.
The other difficulty is what exactly do controllers think that a weather radar will display? Yes it'll show a grey area where there is bad weather but what does it mean? Is it simple precipitation? Is it huge CB's? Can aircraft fly through it? There is (AFAIK) no simple way to determine exactly what the 'weather radar' is showing you.
Lastly, other posters have touched on the point that some companies and pilots may disagree with an ATC implemented restriction on where they can fly due to 'weather'.
BD
The other difficulty is what exactly do controllers think that a weather radar will display? Yes it'll show a grey area where there is bad weather but what does it mean? Is it simple precipitation? Is it huge CB's? Can aircraft fly through it? There is (AFAIK) no simple way to determine exactly what the 'weather radar' is showing you.
Lastly, other posters have touched on the point that some companies and pilots may disagree with an ATC implemented restriction on where they can fly due to 'weather'.
BD
Ohcirrej
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The Wx we have displayed on our radars is a digitised blue overlay, which doesn't hinder or mask any of the aircraft returns on the screen. The information displayed is at best, average and is useless if the weather is fast moving.
We also have a component that shows real time lightning strikes, displaying a little lightning bolt in the position of the strike. I pay far more creedence to that one, as it does seem to be accurate, especially when you can see a grouping of strikes where no blue "weather" is being displayed.
We also have a component that shows real time lightning strikes, displaying a little lightning bolt in the position of the strike. I pay far more creedence to that one, as it does seem to be accurate, especially when you can see a grouping of strikes where no blue "weather" is being displayed.
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Pilot requested turn for Wx avoid.
Checked it was safe. (high terrain in area)
Background radar on for one sweep.
Looked at Wx returns.
Gave advice to pilot for good heading.
Pilot happy with advice and once away from the CB's said thanks very much and went enroute.
Job done.
Happy.
Checked it was safe. (high terrain in area)
Background radar on for one sweep.
Looked at Wx returns.
Gave advice to pilot for good heading.
Pilot happy with advice and once away from the CB's said thanks very much and went enroute.
Job done.
Happy.
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My experience;
They are very good in Singapore ! I do not know witch systems they are using but last time they interpreted and gave me R-Vectors exactly the way I wanted to avoid the CBs.
Good job. I can rely on such well equiped and competend ATCO, when only my Radar is swtiched ON Off course.
Never forget who is the PIC please,
and I repeat one more times that I have no personal problems with ATCOs even if they are British gentelman or ladies.
So please do not start of discussing with me about French RT, it is out of the subject.
Thanks
Salut
They are very good in Singapore ! I do not know witch systems they are using but last time they interpreted and gave me R-Vectors exactly the way I wanted to avoid the CBs.
Good job. I can rely on such well equiped and competend ATCO, when only my Radar is swtiched ON Off course.
Never forget who is the PIC please,
and I repeat one more times that I have no personal problems with ATCOs even if they are British gentelman or ladies.
So please do not start of discussing with me about French RT, it is out of the subject.
Thanks
Salut
