Whats going on at CATC
Join Date: May 2002
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Matt
TR = Training Review
Which is a panel interview with 3 instructors/managers/HR people (I think) which lasts a couple of hours and they go over all your records and make a decision on whether to give you another chance or to chop you.
Cheers
BB
TR = Training Review
Which is a panel interview with 3 instructors/managers/HR people (I think) which lasts a couple of hours and they go over all your records and make a decision on whether to give you another chance or to chop you.
Cheers
BB
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2005
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Hi,
Had a good look through this thread now and to be honest i probably will go for it, will just have to come up with another plan about whether to bring the missus down.
Cheers for all the comments guys.
Had a good look through this thread now and to be honest i probably will go for it, will just have to come up with another plan about whether to bring the missus down.
Cheers for all the comments guys.
Join Date: Feb 2002
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Actually, since Pe..Bernoulli retired, there have been less short skirts in evidence. I think it was mostly for his benefit.
Keep in touch you wee bugger. Stuff is still occurring.
DwB
Keep in touch you wee bugger. Stuff is still occurring.
DwB
Join Date: Nov 1999
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DwB I can't help my animal magnetism, and jealousy will get you nowhere. However, in an attempt to stop this thread creeping any further (or hem-lines ditto), 2 sheds has said it all really. A trainee ATCO needs time for things to sink in and mature - a bit like making a good wine. Rush the process and you will get something that is just drinkable but won't last.
Once upon a time, training an ATCO took the best part of three years. Now, with a traffic rate umpteen times what it was then, training takes what? a year? OK, OK, I'm just a dinosaur living in the past but, somewhere between the two extremes is where the training regime should be. Trouble is that the people in charge of making these decisions probably think that "ATCO" is a brand of lawn-mower. How is Suzy by the way?
Once upon a time, training an ATCO took the best part of three years. Now, with a traffic rate umpteen times what it was then, training takes what? a year? OK, OK, I'm just a dinosaur living in the past but, somewhere between the two extremes is where the training regime should be. Trouble is that the people in charge of making these decisions probably think that "ATCO" is a brand of lawn-mower. How is Suzy by the way?
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"im a retired out of touch instructor"
I thought it was an entry requirement to be out of touch if you wanted to be an instructor. Being a washed up letch seemed to be useful attributes aswell.
Dont let your girlfriend give up her job yet. You will have time to go and see her at weekends and she can come see you. You would be better off without the distraction during the week. Depending on which course you do and how successfull you are you may only be at CATC for about a year maybe less.
I would start the course and see how you get on before making any decisions. Good luck.
I thought it was an entry requirement to be out of touch if you wanted to be an instructor. Being a washed up letch seemed to be useful attributes aswell.
Dont let your girlfriend give up her job yet. You will have time to go and see her at weekends and she can come see you. You would be better off without the distraction during the week. Depending on which course you do and how successfull you are you may only be at CATC for about a year maybe less.
I would start the course and see how you get on before making any decisions. Good luck.
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Bucking Bronco
No instructors at the training review - curently being done by
* A representative from HR and the "Head of Training Standards"
Johnny5
LOTS of people getting chopped at the moment. Time at the college varies between 6 months (tower only) and 18 months (area). Over the last couple of area courses only about 50% got through.
I would agree with those posters who suggest that your girlfriend keeps her job and flat - that way if it all goes pear-shaped at least one of you has a job, and you have somewhere to go. Girlfriends tend to get bored in Bournemouth too, since you will be spending virtually all your waking hours working and talking about ATC. Go and see her at weekends.
* Leave the names with barbed comments out of things from now on. PPRuNe Radar
No instructors at the training review - curently being done by
* A representative from HR and the "Head of Training Standards"
Johnny5
LOTS of people getting chopped at the moment. Time at the college varies between 6 months (tower only) and 18 months (area). Over the last couple of area courses only about 50% got through.
I would agree with those posters who suggest that your girlfriend keeps her job and flat - that way if it all goes pear-shaped at least one of you has a job, and you have somewhere to go. Girlfriends tend to get bored in Bournemouth too, since you will be spending virtually all your waking hours working and talking about ATC. Go and see her at weekends.
* Leave the names with barbed comments out of things from now on. PPRuNe Radar
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OK, this is positively my last contribution to this thread.
siam That was a bit harsh, or was it jealousy?
As for the rest, I have my own opinions based on 37 years in ATC including 15 years as a trainer. I have watched a good training system go slowly and steadily down the wrong track (IMHO). The perception from an instructor's point of view is that no-one pays much attention to the opinions of those most likely to have their fingers on the pulse. As I said before, there is nowt wrong with the quality of trainee, and there is nowt wrong with the quality of instructor. The quality of instruction is suffering because of the policy of teaching only the bare minimum necessary (in someone's opinion) to pass through the college and on to a unit in an ever shortening time-scale. If this puts the failure rate up then, OK, we'll double the throughput.
The saddest thing about all this, and I think it is almost criminal, is that the "system" is messing about with people's lives and careers for the sake of fulfilling targets (or reaching destinations!) that are unrealistic.
Perhaps senior management might like to consider another potemtial spin-off from this new approach to training. Suppose some unlucky newish ATCO has a really bad day and manages to weld two aircraft together. What will be the managers' position if it can be shown that ATCOs training now is shallow and inadequate? Ask Balfour Beattie or Network Rail.
The latest Approach Radar (sorry, Approach Surveillance) results speak volumes. When this course was re-written not that many years ago by yours truly and a number of other top-class bods, it was done on a bottom to top basis. Never mind how long the course would last, put in everything an Approach radar controller needs to know. Of course, this was based on the assumption (silly me) that the trainees would already know something about an aerodrome, having done the aerodrome course. The results were extremely good. If you failed it the, by 'Eck you deserved to. Now, as the college moves away from basic stuff like what constitutes "downwind", the pass-rate has plummeted. SURPRISE!
I am very disappointed to see where things are going and I feel huge sympathy for anyone taking on ATC as a career now. Great, superb, if you succeed, but I feel the "if" is now bigger than the "when".
Rant over.
siam That was a bit harsh, or was it jealousy?
As for the rest, I have my own opinions based on 37 years in ATC including 15 years as a trainer. I have watched a good training system go slowly and steadily down the wrong track (IMHO). The perception from an instructor's point of view is that no-one pays much attention to the opinions of those most likely to have their fingers on the pulse. As I said before, there is nowt wrong with the quality of trainee, and there is nowt wrong with the quality of instructor. The quality of instruction is suffering because of the policy of teaching only the bare minimum necessary (in someone's opinion) to pass through the college and on to a unit in an ever shortening time-scale. If this puts the failure rate up then, OK, we'll double the throughput.
The saddest thing about all this, and I think it is almost criminal, is that the "system" is messing about with people's lives and careers for the sake of fulfilling targets (or reaching destinations!) that are unrealistic.
Perhaps senior management might like to consider another potemtial spin-off from this new approach to training. Suppose some unlucky newish ATCO has a really bad day and manages to weld two aircraft together. What will be the managers' position if it can be shown that ATCOs training now is shallow and inadequate? Ask Balfour Beattie or Network Rail.
The latest Approach Radar (sorry, Approach Surveillance) results speak volumes. When this course was re-written not that many years ago by yours truly and a number of other top-class bods, it was done on a bottom to top basis. Never mind how long the course would last, put in everything an Approach radar controller needs to know. Of course, this was based on the assumption (silly me) that the trainees would already know something about an aerodrome, having done the aerodrome course. The results were extremely good. If you failed it the, by 'Eck you deserved to. Now, as the college moves away from basic stuff like what constitutes "downwind", the pass-rate has plummeted. SURPRISE!
I am very disappointed to see where things are going and I feel huge sympathy for anyone taking on ATC as a career now. Great, superb, if you succeed, but I feel the "if" is now bigger than the "when".
Rant over.
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Preparation
Hi there,
I'm hopefully due to start at CATC on the next course and have been reading this thread with interest (and needless to say a lot of trepidation). Like jonnhy5, I'll be making a big decision to leave my current job and begin working on becoming an ATCO.
In terms of the changes you guys have mentioned in the training, if it is that the basics are being attended to less now, are there any resources you would recommend could/should be read/learned/understood before beginning in order that I could attempt to get up and running before I start? I guess the MATS part 1 is an obvious answer to my question, but is there anything else you might be able to suggest?
Many thanks in advance. These pages are a very useful, if unnerving, resource for people in situations similar to mine.
I'm hopefully due to start at CATC on the next course and have been reading this thread with interest (and needless to say a lot of trepidation). Like jonnhy5, I'll be making a big decision to leave my current job and begin working on becoming an ATCO.
In terms of the changes you guys have mentioned in the training, if it is that the basics are being attended to less now, are there any resources you would recommend could/should be read/learned/understood before beginning in order that I could attempt to get up and running before I start? I guess the MATS part 1 is an obvious answer to my question, but is there anything else you might be able to suggest?
Many thanks in advance. These pages are a very useful, if unnerving, resource for people in situations similar to mine.
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What happens to the Partner
From the Partners point of view!
I was one of the ones who wanted to move down with my partner, and to be honest, I really enjoyed it, apart from the weeks away at flying training, oh and then the 8 weeks away training, but still it was nice.
I found a good job in aviation and life was good. My partner had to work very hard, but it was nice to have me as support when work got stressed.
Throughout the training there was always, "he's failed this, or he's only got another retake left. It always seemed like anything could go either way.
My partner passed the training and got to graduation which was absolutely fantastic. Everyone was so happy. You may think, well we are settled now? But no. He continued with his training, which was getting harder and harder. By this time we had settled and bought a house.
The training was intense, everyone was so tired and needed a break from it, but there was no let up. In the end he failed part of his training and was told we would probably have to move.
We are now living miles away from where we lived. My partner is once again enjoying his work and doing well which is great.
I have still not found a permanent job and can't get anything near the same amount of pay I was on. I actually applied to NATS for a lower down job, was kept waiting for nearly two months and then told I wasn't even going to get to the assessment stage. This let down was in the form of an email, how personal. (Bearing in mind I have worked in Aviation for 3 years)
It would be nice if NATS could give some support to the Partners when they move you around at the drop of a hat! We are here you know and I know people have had to suffer this like me.
I just wanted to let everyone know what it's like from the other side. I wouldn't say don't go, but I would say, think carefully!
I was one of the ones who wanted to move down with my partner, and to be honest, I really enjoyed it, apart from the weeks away at flying training, oh and then the 8 weeks away training, but still it was nice.
I found a good job in aviation and life was good. My partner had to work very hard, but it was nice to have me as support when work got stressed.
Throughout the training there was always, "he's failed this, or he's only got another retake left. It always seemed like anything could go either way.
My partner passed the training and got to graduation which was absolutely fantastic. Everyone was so happy. You may think, well we are settled now? But no. He continued with his training, which was getting harder and harder. By this time we had settled and bought a house.
The training was intense, everyone was so tired and needed a break from it, but there was no let up. In the end he failed part of his training and was told we would probably have to move.
We are now living miles away from where we lived. My partner is once again enjoying his work and doing well which is great.
I have still not found a permanent job and can't get anything near the same amount of pay I was on. I actually applied to NATS for a lower down job, was kept waiting for nearly two months and then told I wasn't even going to get to the assessment stage. This let down was in the form of an email, how personal. (Bearing in mind I have worked in Aviation for 3 years)
It would be nice if NATS could give some support to the Partners when they move you around at the drop of a hat! We are here you know and I know people have had to suffer this like me.
I just wanted to let everyone know what it's like from the other side. I wouldn't say don't go, but I would say, think carefully!
Couldn't have put it better than Bern Ouilli myself - except, perhaps, to be even more forthright about various members of NATS management who lost sight of the high standards of which they are the first to boast.
So much of their approach suffered from "Emperor's New Clothes" Syndrome. As long as whatever they were proposing would save money and therefore earn them brownie points (apparently nothing to do with the Scouting movement, but deriving from "brown-nosing") and further their own careers, then that was the flavour of the month and anyone raising any objections was publicly labelled as "negative" or told to be quiet. The unfortunate fact was that those making the decisions were probably among the least experienced and least qualified to make such decisions. Many of those involved have now disappeared into the woodwork into other posts leaving others to cope with the present second-rate system.
The removal of the "aerodrome training for all" principle in NATS was instituted in a very underhand way so that people would gain the impression that it had been mandated by Europe. That training had been undertaken for the last half-century and its value was well proven.
So much of their approach suffered from "Emperor's New Clothes" Syndrome. As long as whatever they were proposing would save money and therefore earn them brownie points (apparently nothing to do with the Scouting movement, but deriving from "brown-nosing") and further their own careers, then that was the flavour of the month and anyone raising any objections was publicly labelled as "negative" or told to be quiet. The unfortunate fact was that those making the decisions were probably among the least experienced and least qualified to make such decisions. Many of those involved have now disappeared into the woodwork into other posts leaving others to cope with the present second-rate system.
The removal of the "aerodrome training for all" principle in NATS was instituted in a very underhand way so that people would gain the impression that it had been mandated by Europe. That training had been undertaken for the last half-century and its value was well proven.
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I feel fairly lucky that I was on one of the last courses through the college undertaking the old style course (Aerodrome-radar skills-approach/area). Although it seemed that we were never going to leave (Mar 03-Feb 05) I certainly don't think any of it was wasted.
Yes we had to hold for over 3 months waiting for the area course to start but I learnt quite a bit during that time at LACC which was certainly beneficial back at college. We also had an extra month of aerodrome OJT (that was when we were allowed to actually control!) which gave me over 100 hrs on TWR and APP at EGAA. The confidence of actually talking to real pilots and not crashing anything was extremely useful to take back to the next few courses.
It does appear that the new courses were introduced to fix a short term problem of lower numbers of graduates making it to units, which certainly worked in some ways as I know of many students that started 6 months after me validating in 2004...I am just about to start live training in late 2005! However from my point of view it doesn't seem that the long term future was considered that well (I am happy to be corrected!)
Yes we had to hold for over 3 months waiting for the area course to start but I learnt quite a bit during that time at LACC which was certainly beneficial back at college. We also had an extra month of aerodrome OJT (that was when we were allowed to actually control!) which gave me over 100 hrs on TWR and APP at EGAA. The confidence of actually talking to real pilots and not crashing anything was extremely useful to take back to the next few courses.
It does appear that the new courses were introduced to fix a short term problem of lower numbers of graduates making it to units, which certainly worked in some ways as I know of many students that started 6 months after me validating in 2004...I am just about to start live training in late 2005! However from my point of view it doesn't seem that the long term future was considered that well (I am happy to be corrected!)
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I agree with everything the great Bern Oulli has said. 
There was a time, not so long ago, when we used to get up to four at a time from the college. Back then it was surprising if someone didn't validate.
Now however, we as OJTIs find ourselves throwing hours at trainees hoping some will stick, which isn't good for anybody's morale. The justification?......they've been let down by the system at the college.
There was a time, not so long ago, when we used to get up to four at a time from the college. Back then it was surprising if someone didn't validate.
Now however, we as OJTIs find ourselves throwing hours at trainees hoping some will stick, which isn't good for anybody's morale. The justification?......they've been let down by the system at the college.
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Gonzo
We've had our "debates" about some of the changes before, but I have to agree with you now. It certainly seems that the standard of knowledge base on completion of the college will be much lower than previous (not a reflection on the trainees I hasten to add!! )
Previously I was considering my case (and those from courses just after mine, but prior to the course content change) where we didn't have the approach radar rating, but still did the old style aerodrome course and hence came out with the same level of aerodrome knowledge as previous courses, just lacking a bit in radar appreciation.
It seems to be the case, however, that the new style course is going to be churning out trainees who then require a lot more training than before, just to get up to speed with the basics, hence a lot more time under unit training. Kind of passing the buck IMHO just to fill target numbers of college graduates!!
An ever so slight concern I must say.
FB
We've had our "debates" about some of the changes before, but I have to agree with you now. It certainly seems that the standard of knowledge base on completion of the college will be much lower than previous (not a reflection on the trainees I hasten to add!!
)Previously I was considering my case (and those from courses just after mine, but prior to the course content change) where we didn't have the approach radar rating, but still did the old style aerodrome course and hence came out with the same level of aerodrome knowledge as previous courses, just lacking a bit in radar appreciation.
It seems to be the case, however, that the new style course is going to be churning out trainees who then require a lot more training than before, just to get up to speed with the basics, hence a lot more time under unit training. Kind of passing the buck IMHO just to fill target numbers of college graduates!!
An ever so slight concern I must say.FB
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Looking forward to it like a hole in the head especially if i'd have to train anyone like myself!!!
Nah I wasn't really that bad was I?!? Hold on...don't answer that!!!
FB
Nah I wasn't really that bad was I?!? Hold on...don't answer that!!!FB
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Have to say when training people on unit it gets very depressing to have to teach pt 1 stuff as well. People leave the college having learnt enough to pass the course, not enough to make good controllers. Of course the best will still do very well, but the ones who would have scraped through before will not any more, so we will end up with less at the coalface, be even shorter on numbers and the OJTIs can take all the blame - trebles for management all round.
Cynical: No just can see it happening, and what about the pay rise and OJTI paymnents, don't even go there......
Cynical: No just can see it happening, and what about the pay rise and OJTI paymnents, don't even go there......
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FB, I reckon you'd be pretty good! Seriously.
Terrain safe, it's all going to be OK. What we've all forgotten in our bout of cynicism is that our 'Head Of Planning All Things To Do With Training' has created a 'Unit Improvement' workstream in the 'Training 2008' Destination 22 wotsit.
Of course it's blatantly obvious to everyone that up until now all the OJTIs around the country were just sat there with their thumbs up their behinds, y-fronts on their head and pencils in their nostrils. It seems now we actually have to work for our payment.
Terrain safe, it's all going to be OK. What we've all forgotten in our bout of cynicism is that our 'Head Of Planning All Things To Do With Training' has created a 'Unit Improvement' workstream in the 'Training 2008' Destination 22 wotsit.
Of course it's blatantly obvious to everyone that up until now all the OJTIs around the country were just sat there with their thumbs up their behinds, y-fronts on their head and pencils in their nostrils. It seems now we actually have to work for our payment.