End of Radar for ATC?
End of Radar for ATC?
I see that I can now convert my computer to a virtual radar for the princely sum of £450. This will apparently display details of every aircraft with Mode S over a radius of up to 198 miles.
http://www.kinetic-avionics.co.uk/
I believe that this system (or similar) is being discussed at NATS, so is it likely to replace conventional ATC radar which is expensive to install and maintain? Will it also power the argument for fitting Mode S to all aircraft?
Once Mode S becomes compulsory Big Brother, and anyone else with a computer and SBS, can watch and record the movements of every aircraft in their area, and provide evidence of any slight infringement of the rules e.g. slightly below 1500' over the edge of a built up area.
I think that I am glad I will probably be too old to fly by the time that starts to happen.
http://www.kinetic-avionics.co.uk/
I believe that this system (or similar) is being discussed at NATS, so is it likely to replace conventional ATC radar which is expensive to install and maintain? Will it also power the argument for fitting Mode S to all aircraft?
Once Mode S becomes compulsory Big Brother, and anyone else with a computer and SBS, can watch and record the movements of every aircraft in their area, and provide evidence of any slight infringement of the rules e.g. slightly below 1500' over the edge of a built up area.
I think that I am glad I will probably be too old to fly by the time that starts to happen.
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Radar.....
I've seen the prototype working first hand on my friends laptop, and it is very impessive. We watched an A/C arriving at LAM and being vectored into EGLL with it's heights, speed and call sign.
Is this the future ???????
Is this the future ???????
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I must admit to being slightly concerned by this kit, and who may get hold of it and for what purpose - hopefully some sort of legislation will be brought in (like the wirless and telegraphy act) to at least attempt to make sure it only gets used for bone fide tasks.
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You're probably right, to an extent... at least one UK agenccy is looking at the potential, and there are working experiments elsewhere in the world (where it would be impractical /unfeasible locate radar aerials... or where coverage is severly limited i.e. mountainous regions)... IMHO I don't think this will drive the introduction of Mode S, but rather be a "benefit" of a system that is coming anyway... there are many other, probably more pressing justifications for S?
Will it totally replace radar... big question. I believe it is still not certain that all flying machines will have to carry a transponder... so all the time, in the UK, you have commercial flights in Class G there could be a strong justification for keeping a primary radar system... and then of course there's a defence arguement... a "radar" system that relies on transponders also relies on a will to comply... Think 9/11?
Will it totally replace radar... big question. I believe it is still not certain that all flying machines will have to carry a transponder... so all the time, in the UK, you have commercial flights in Class G there could be a strong justification for keeping a primary radar system... and then of course there's a defence arguement... a "radar" system that relies on transponders also relies on a will to comply... Think 9/11?
Ohcirrej
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And how long till somebody thinks they see something "bad" on their screen in their bedroom which is a perfectly legal and safe situation and calls my friends at the Daily Mail trying to make some money on a story.
What do they say? "A little information is a dangerous thing"
(How long till somebody comes along here and starts waving a "If you have nothing to hide" banner?)
What do they say? "A little information is a dangerous thing"
(How long till somebody comes along here and starts waving a "If you have nothing to hide" banner?)
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And even better...
Now when we get jokers coming on frequency and making random calls, they'll be able to see where a/c are and point them towards each other!
Or, imagine the NIMBY living under an approach track somewhere... every time he sees something about to come over his house...
"BAW123 AVOIDING ACTION turn right 30 degrees"!
Now when we get jokers coming on frequency and making random calls, they'll be able to see where a/c are and point them towards each other!
Or, imagine the NIMBY living under an approach track somewhere... every time he sees something about to come over his house...
"BAW123 AVOIDING ACTION turn right 30 degrees"!
I see that I can now convert my computer to a virtual radar for the princely sum of £450. This will apparently display details of every aircraft with Mode S over a radius of up to 198 miles.
Elementary Mode S doesn't include this ADS-B functionality, and so to do away with the radar would require a further mandate for every aircraft to carry a reliable position determining device like GPS, and for the output of that to be available in the downlink. That's fine for modern glass aircraft, but I think it will be many years before all aircraft are so equipped.
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That's fine for modern glass aircraft, but I think it will be many years before all aircraft are so equipped.
Really? A GPS costs less than a tank of fuel.
We have an aircraft with a GNS430 GPS and recently installed the GTX330 Mode S transponder. As far as I'm aware, we were either unable or not permitted to allow the GTX330 to squitter the GPS position.
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As an enthousiast, I'd love to have something like this! I listen to EHAM R/T a lot, and having the "view" would make it complete. 450 Pounds is a lot of money though 
I think it won't be any legislation that stops me from buying it... it will be my wife.
I think it won't be any legislation that stops me from buying it... it will be my wife.
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The sort of unit that the authorities would allow to be prmanently installed and connected to a Mode S transponder to downlink safety critical positional information would, I think, cost rather more than that
Would you have thought sat phones, or even mobile phones, would be so cheap so short a time later, when the first few people got them?
It may be that the "lets-go-hiking" accuracy of +/- 50m is quite accurate enough for the purpose contemplated. How accurate do you think accelerometer-driven RNAV is?
I'd be delighted if it did turn out to be cheaper -- I'm a great fan of ADS-B.
Sure. So now we have billions of mobile phones in the world, and they cost almost nothing. Meanwhile the good old VHF AM transceiver, a vastly simpler technology, still runs to 4-digit prices if you want a class 1 (approved) unit. TSO-129A GPSs have been around for 10 years, and the price really hasn't fallen much. The overall market is just not big enough to bring the prices down.
It's not the accuracy, but the certification of reliability that is the costly issue. The costs of certification have to be recovered through the price of the units sold to the aviation market.
Would you have thought sat phones, or even mobile phones, would be so cheap so short a time later, when the first few people got them?
It may be that the "lets-go-hiking" accuracy of +/- 50m is quite accurate enough for the purpose contemplated.
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"I must admit to being slightly concerned by this kit, and who may get hold of it and for what purpose - hopefully some sort of legislation will be brought in (like the wirless and telegraphy act) to at least attempt to make sure it only gets used for bone fide tasks."
Absolutely. Can't have the plebs getting hold of information gathered with their tax money, now, can we?
Absolutely. Can't have the plebs getting hold of information gathered with their tax money, now, can we?
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I know the market of the modern airlines is tight, but I can't really see that the major issue for them is the cost of Mode S installation on new ac. Given the power of the airlines with gov'ts various, it also seems unlikely that they will be forced into it any time soon. However, as Pierre Argh said earlier:
The cost of such a system for the average weekend pilot might well be prohibitive, so that it would seem that these are the people who will need help changing over. Am I right in thinking that some countries are considering funding (are at least subsidizing) installation for the light ac fraternity (and sorority)? And what about gliders, balloons etc? These are difficult enough to detect with a good primary radar, so the idea that they now need Mode S is no more tennable than that they should carry Mode A/C Transponders at the moment.
STH
all the time, in the UK, you have commercial flights in Class G there could be a strong justification for keeping a primary radar system
STH
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Am I right in thinking that some countries are considering funding (are at least subsidizing) installation for the light ac fraternity
Bookworm.
The govt can have a lot of control over that price of certification. We won't have to wait long to see, anyway. Amazing how the companies can play the game, too. Sometimes they need their foot in the door in case the money-spinning applications appear later.
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The unit in question does not just use ADS-B type info, reading a write up on it in a GA mag this month, there is some sort of internet tie up and you can get position info on all squawking aeroplanes within line of sight of the aerial.
Another discussion point is that some GA type airfields have installed it to help their AFISO/Radio operators prevent collisions, ensure noise abatement is complied with etc...can open, worms everywhere - does that mean that non-ATCO, non radar trained Radio op/AFISO then has a duty of care to prevent collisions??? Discuss...its an absolute minefield
Another discussion point is that some GA type airfields have installed it to help their AFISO/Radio operators prevent collisions, ensure noise abatement is complied with etc...can open, worms everywhere - does that mean that non-ATCO, non radar trained Radio op/AFISO then has a duty of care to prevent collisions??? Discuss...its an absolute minefield