Nats Dropouts!
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Nats Dropouts!
Just wondered how many ex NATS trainees there are out there that have now validated their licences after being told by the College that you weren’t going to make it as a controller!?
[Edited by PPRuNe Radar]
[Edited by PPRuNe Radar]
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Many NATS "dropouts" go on to have very successful ATC careers outside of NATS.
There's a fair few here and they've done very well for themselves, even a few who never got past the NATS selection tests/interviews and took a different route.
When I was at the college (Course 98) we lost 7 peeps. One was a LATCC ATSA who went back to her old job, three left the world of ATC for different careers, and three went on to pick up ATC posts in the non NATS world - I think one of them's a Watch Manager somewhere.
So not the end of the world if you get chopped, in fact a fair few units actively seek out failed NATS cadets to employ - save's them a fair few quid in training costs!!
There's a fair few here and they've done very well for themselves, even a few who never got past the NATS selection tests/interviews and took a different route.
When I was at the college (Course 98) we lost 7 peeps. One was a LATCC ATSA who went back to her old job, three left the world of ATC for different careers, and three went on to pick up ATC posts in the non NATS world - I think one of them's a Watch Manager somewhere.
So not the end of the world if you get chopped, in fact a fair few units actively seek out failed NATS cadets to employ - save's them a fair few quid in training costs!!
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All i can say is that i am putting my notice in next week and going my own route. Must be about 7 off my original course who have had to do the same. Wonder when HR will be accountable for a lack of controllers?
There is a world outside NATS!
Will miss the majority of my colleagues tho.
[Edited by PPRuNe Radar]
There is a world outside NATS!
Will miss the majority of my colleagues tho.
[Edited by PPRuNe Radar]
StandupfortheUlstermen
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Well, after 10 happy years outside the asylum, it appears I'm to be dragged kicking and screaming back inside again!
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ATCO 1979..... If you really step back at look at the quality of some of the boys and girls we get from the college, you too would be horrified. Consider if you will, how many people get the chop from Nats and never go on to do ATC, then compare it to the very few examples that you and others are quoting.
We are talking about human lives here and it is quite simple, if you're not good enough your out! Happens in every walk of life, everyday of the year. Anyway, glad to see you jump before your pushed....Cya
We are talking about human lives here and it is quite simple, if you're not good enough your out! Happens in every walk of life, everyday of the year. Anyway, glad to see you jump before your pushed....Cya
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Following on from what unwise said... In my experience (just 31+ years in NATS and its various predecessors) controllers don't get chopped unless there is a very good reason. Considerable time, money and effort is expended in training, both at the college and at operational units. At all units, trainees will be with some of the world's most experienced and respected ATC staff and if, after all that effort, somebody is not up to the job then they will have to go.. You might be amazed at how many people THINK they are God's gift to ATC but whose Training Officers dread to sit with them - seen it, done it, got the tee-shirt and thankfully said "good riddance" to a few!! Some people who do well at the college can't hack live training - some don't even get past initial simulator work in the training section. Others have personality clashes, "personal" problems, etc., but every effort is made to help these controllers. After all, an extra bloke on the watch means more summer leave all round.
However, trainees with problems are usually given several chances (as some people reading this can surely confirm). Failure to validate at a particular unit usually results in an offer of a posting elsewhere. At a big unit the opportunity may arise to train on a different sector, which often works. I saw plenty of really first class controllers who had experienced great difficulty on previous units/sectors. Excellent Tower controllers have failed on radar... superb approach controllers couldn't do TMA to save themselves, etc, etc. If somebody is "removed" from NATS they need to think seriously about themselves because there must have been a good reason.
OK... now for the smart remarks...
However, trainees with problems are usually given several chances (as some people reading this can surely confirm). Failure to validate at a particular unit usually results in an offer of a posting elsewhere. At a big unit the opportunity may arise to train on a different sector, which often works. I saw plenty of really first class controllers who had experienced great difficulty on previous units/sectors. Excellent Tower controllers have failed on radar... superb approach controllers couldn't do TMA to save themselves, etc, etc. If somebody is "removed" from NATS they need to think seriously about themselves because there must have been a good reason.
OK... now for the smart remarks...
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I was given the "bye bye" pep talk saying that I should just give up and not bother approaching any airport with my licence - they wont want me...
Hmmm....?
Its been 12 months and Im validated at possibly the busiest and most complex unit in the south east... and Im proud of it.
Im not bitter toward NATS or anyone in particular but they could have put a human touch on an upsetting situation IMHO, rather than stare at a sheet of paper shaking heads tutting...
[Edited by PPRuNe Radar]
Hmmm....?
Its been 12 months and Im validated at possibly the busiest and most complex unit in the south east... and Im proud of it.
Im not bitter toward NATS or anyone in particular but they could have put a human touch on an upsetting situation IMHO, rather than stare at a sheet of paper shaking heads tutting...
[Edited by PPRuNe Radar]
StandupfortheUlstermen
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Brian81 - I've spent the last ten years in the 'private sector' since NATS kicked me out, and I've never been happier. Quite a few on my course went on to work at various units in the big wide world after NATS, it's 'oh so perfect' training system and it's 'we are the best and don't you forget it' OJTI's decided we were useless. But here's the thing, I've seen several of the 'perfect' mob down here at BRS and after an hour watching what we do in radar, they walk out with their heads spinning.
As I said, it's a shame I'm being dragged back in there!
On a dark desert highway, cool wind in my hair................ - it's something like that, isn't it eastern ?
As I said, it's a shame I'm being dragged back in there!
On a dark desert highway, cool wind in my hair................ - it's something like that, isn't it eastern ?
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HD: I agree with much of what you say but you're putting the emphasis on training post CATC. The threadstarter is referring to those chopped whilst at CATC.
Most cadets chopped from CATC are those that have fell behind the drag curve. If you can't keep up you usually trip over during the practical "milestone" (do they still call them that?) assessments. It's an unfortunate reality but the course can't stop and wait for them to catch up. I was on my way out during my course but fortunately an instructor helped me out with bit of advice during a few lunch breaks and suddenly things "clicked". I went on to graduate and subsequently vailidate at my unit and have had a thoroughly rewarding ATC career so far. If it wasn't for that instructor helping me out I'd probably have been chopped - it's a pity that those struggling can't get a bit of extra help as a rule but that's just the way it is.
I know quite a few ATCO's who struggled and were told they'd "never make it" by Freddy et al. Must have been very demoralising. However they've gone out there, got themselves into an ATC unit and are now valid controllers (sometimes at their own expense).
However if must be equally as frustrating for NATS to lay out 10's of thousands on people who they chop and hand on a plate to eagerly waiting non NATS units!!
It ain't a perfect world!!
Most cadets chopped from CATC are those that have fell behind the drag curve. If you can't keep up you usually trip over during the practical "milestone" (do they still call them that?) assessments. It's an unfortunate reality but the course can't stop and wait for them to catch up. I was on my way out during my course but fortunately an instructor helped me out with bit of advice during a few lunch breaks and suddenly things "clicked". I went on to graduate and subsequently vailidate at my unit and have had a thoroughly rewarding ATC career so far. If it wasn't for that instructor helping me out I'd probably have been chopped - it's a pity that those struggling can't get a bit of extra help as a rule but that's just the way it is.
I know quite a few ATCO's who struggled and were told they'd "never make it" by Freddy et al. Must have been very demoralising. However they've gone out there, got themselves into an ATC unit and are now valid controllers (sometimes at their own expense).
However if must be equally as frustrating for NATS to lay out 10's of thousands on people who they chop and hand on a plate to eagerly waiting non NATS units!!
It ain't a perfect world!!
StandupfortheUlstermen
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Ah, a wise man indeed, but tell me squibbler, how are your alloy wheels? Or should I say where are your alloy wheels?
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Yikes! This thread brings back hideous memories
I reckon 50% of my course were chopped.
Happily, I managed to continue my ATC career quite promptly and validated in tower and approach before my colleagues had even started live training at LATCC.
What gave me more satisfaction however, was managing to get hold of a spare ticket for the course 99/100 graduation dinner AND having the opportunity to sit with College staff and thank them for fast tracking my ATC career. A very sweet moment!
But gloating aside....
Perhaps....... but very many of them have good reason to feel they were unfairly treated - including the countless controllers who were prematurely 'terminated' by NATS who are perfectly competent and have to answer to SRG every year.
I'm not suggesting that all who arrive at CATC should automatically pass. But I do remember how the system worked some 9 years ago and it was far from perfect. I had the opportunity to experience training at both CATC and the sadly missed Bailbrook College. In summary, the two establishments were worlds apart in terms of the training ethos.
Trainees lived in a fear culture at CATC. Simulator exercises were a mine field in which the legs of your career might be blown away in 30mins. It was so unfair to see instructors smirking and shaking their heads next to a shellshocked, red faced trainee. Every trainee is going to lose it sometime. And does a trainee really benefit from an exercise like that?
All this in a training program which included milestones which needed to be passed as well ass continuous assessment. Not to mention a student liaison officer who had photographs of every trainee on his office wall in order that a 'death cap' could be drawn on their individual head's once they'd been put to the sword. No wonder there was a fear culture!
Not so at Bailbrook. Instructors were quite happy to go 'clocks off' midway through an exercise and discuss where the difficulties were, pick out the learning points, maybe even remove a couple a/c and then continue with something managable. The teacher in me (and the OJTI in me for that matter) considers that to be a far more effective way of teaching/learning.
I agree however, that you can't compromise on standards and ultimately the trainee has to meet these.
I can only comment on my training experience with NATS, and it was awful. Things may have changed since I walked through the corridors of CATC and I hope that they have, I really do. I don't have any experience as an operational ATCO with NATS so I really can't comment on what it's like. It's probably very good, but I don't think I could swallow the pay cut!
......time to duck and cover.........
[Edited by PPRuNe Radar]
I reckon 50% of my course were chopped.
Happily, I managed to continue my ATC career quite promptly and validated in tower and approach before my colleagues had even started live training at LATCC.
What gave me more satisfaction however, was managing to get hold of a spare ticket for the course 99/100 graduation dinner AND having the opportunity to sit with College staff and thank them for fast tracking my ATC career. A very sweet moment!
But gloating aside....
If somebody is "removed" from NATS they need to think seriously about themselves because there must have been a good reason.
I'm not suggesting that all who arrive at CATC should automatically pass. But I do remember how the system worked some 9 years ago and it was far from perfect. I had the opportunity to experience training at both CATC and the sadly missed Bailbrook College. In summary, the two establishments were worlds apart in terms of the training ethos.
Trainees lived in a fear culture at CATC. Simulator exercises were a mine field in which the legs of your career might be blown away in 30mins. It was so unfair to see instructors smirking and shaking their heads next to a shellshocked, red faced trainee. Every trainee is going to lose it sometime. And does a trainee really benefit from an exercise like that?
All this in a training program which included milestones which needed to be passed as well ass continuous assessment. Not to mention a student liaison officer who had photographs of every trainee on his office wall in order that a 'death cap' could be drawn on their individual head's once they'd been put to the sword. No wonder there was a fear culture!
Not so at Bailbrook. Instructors were quite happy to go 'clocks off' midway through an exercise and discuss where the difficulties were, pick out the learning points, maybe even remove a couple a/c and then continue with something managable. The teacher in me (and the OJTI in me for that matter) considers that to be a far more effective way of teaching/learning.
I agree however, that you can't compromise on standards and ultimately the trainee has to meet these.
I can only comment on my training experience with NATS, and it was awful. Things may have changed since I walked through the corridors of CATC and I hope that they have, I really do. I don't have any experience as an operational ATCO with NATS so I really can't comment on what it's like. It's probably very good, but I don't think I could swallow the pay cut!
......time to duck and cover.........
[Edited by PPRuNe Radar]
Ohcirrej
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......time to duck and cover.........
Some very pertinent stuff is being written here regarding some individuals who were given their walking orders from the college.
However, there are also people who do make it through the college who shouldn't have (especially the couple on Gonzo and my course who copied down the scripts during the Aerodrome course and took them home with copies of the flight progress strips from the exercises
)
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Hey squibbler, we did lose alot from Course 98 - seems an age ago. There was always the thought that there were other issues besides ability when people got chopped. The Area 2 milestone assessments were a farce as people were upgraded and downgraded all over the place - it definately seemed that they were being fudged to suit some agenda. Those of us that kept our heads down and got on with it quietly seemed to get through no bother, the ones that made some "noise" fell by the wayside.
Nice to see a fellow Course 98'er doing ok - how are things with you?
Ps. Before the comments come in on the suggestion that the college may fudge results - I'm not saying they did, it just felt like they did, we lost some able students that tended to voice their opinions of the system, as colleagues and friends we felt that they were hard done by.
Nice to see a fellow Course 98'er doing ok - how are things with you?
Ps. Before the comments come in on the suggestion that the college may fudge results - I'm not saying they did, it just felt like they did, we lost some able students that tended to voice their opinions of the system, as colleagues and friends we felt that they were hard done by.
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Happily, I managed to continue my ATC career quite promptly and validated in tower and approach before my colleagues had even started live training at LATCC.
'Oh really?' I thought.
I too was validated in approach radar at a non-NATS unit before most on my Area 2 course had started live training. I'm sure my employers are grateful that they get the benefit of the expensive ADC course that NATS paid for...
[Edited by PPRuNe Radar]
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Yeah Jer, I was thinking about those two before I got to your post.
Jer and I went through the college in 1998/99. I had no problems at all with the way I was treated, and at no stage did I fail to feel that the majority of instructors were trying their best to get me through. Of course there are always the exceptions. I certainly didn't pick up on a 'fear culture'.
Jer and I went through the college in 1998/99. I had no problems at all with the way I was treated, and at no stage did I fail to feel that the majority of instructors were trying their best to get me through. Of course there are always the exceptions. I certainly didn't pick up on a 'fear culture'.
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On the other hand isn't it marvellous that there are so many of you who joined NATS, presumably to do the only job you've ever wanted to do, got paid extremely well during your training, weren't bonded to your employer, and then when not upto NATs standards were able to go off in the blue yonder and still get yourselves well paid jobs.
I totally agree that the college is in a mess and that the whole training structure needs to be looked at but the decision to terminate surely isn't in the hands of anyone other than the instructors who write the reports.
I totally agree that the college is in a mess and that the whole training structure needs to be looked at but the decision to terminate surely isn't in the hands of anyone other than the instructors who write the reports.
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Good post 250kts - a look at the current posts on Ryanair and training bonds makes the NATS training scheme seem a breeze!
Though as you say later on - the training system is a bit of a mess - we all learn in different ways and at different speeds and often require a different approach from the people who train us.
Some people respond to the "kick up the backside" style of training, others to the more measured style where you actually feel that the instructor is teaching you skills. When I was at the college there was the feeling that each exercise was a test, not a learning experience. For some that was ok, for most it was not.
At the end of the day it's a job like any other. Is the training there to train you to do that job, or is it one long selection test 'til you validate? Answers on the back of a fps!
Though as you say later on - the training system is a bit of a mess - we all learn in different ways and at different speeds and often require a different approach from the people who train us.
Some people respond to the "kick up the backside" style of training, others to the more measured style where you actually feel that the instructor is teaching you skills. When I was at the college there was the feeling that each exercise was a test, not a learning experience. For some that was ok, for most it was not.
At the end of the day it's a job like any other. Is the training there to train you to do that job, or is it one long selection test 'til you validate? Answers on the back of a fps!