Landing on the Reciprocal Runway (CWL)
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Landing on the Reciprocal Runway (CWL)
Once again last night I was slowed down early on approach to CWL, because an ATR was landing on the other runway.
ATIS gave 30 for landing BRS radar vectored us for 30. ATR lands on 12. This cost us 5 minutes, when there would have been no delay if they had come round to the landing runway.
When we asked ATC for the criteria to land on the reciprocal, they said "just ask". No reference to delaying others flying the published approach. Also, you then have to wait for the ILS to be switched round and are identing, etc at a later and busier time!
ATIS gave 30 for landing BRS radar vectored us for 30. ATR lands on 12. This cost us 5 minutes, when there would have been no delay if they had come round to the landing runway.
When we asked ATC for the criteria to land on the reciprocal, they said "just ask". No reference to delaying others flying the published approach. Also, you then have to wait for the ILS to be switched round and are identing, etc at a later and busier time!
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If the ATR is arriving from the west (i.e. STU), if wind conditions permit and if allowed to by air traffic then it makes sense to ask for 12. Its a case of "you dont ask, you dont get"
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So its okay to waste other peoples time (and fuel, etc)?
Agreed if your not going to hold traffic up but at CWL it often does hold traffic up. Just as long as the ATR gets in the 737/757/320/f70 can wait.
Good commercial sense from an airport that isn't growing as fast as BRS!
Agreed if your not going to hold traffic up but at CWL it often does hold traffic up. Just as long as the ATR gets in the 737/757/320/f70 can wait.
Good commercial sense from an airport that isn't growing as fast as BRS!
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Alterego,
I asked the Bristol Controller to ensure you were not flying high speed when they asked for a level for you. The Bristol ATCO applied a speed they thought was appropriate for the situation bearing in mind they would not have known the speed of the ATR inbound
The opposite end was asked for by the ATR and there were no reasons not to accept this approach, at that stage they were a good 30 miles ahead of you, (they were at AMMAN when they asked at this stage you were still east of Lyneham) and with the expected speed reduction to 250kts below FL100 it still was never going to be an issue.
The ATR 42 was asked to give me their best speed for the approach and they kept 240kts for as long as they could.
Although you feel the speed you were given was slow you would however have always been behind the ATR in this scenario had they landed on either end,and I would have either extended your routing with vectors or slowed you down as necessary
As I told you last night you may yourself always ask for the opposite end and if we can accommodate you we will.
By the way it was an Air Wales flight doing a BMI Baby service.
edited as i was concerned that my original posting seemed unfair on the BRS ATCO who was doing everything they could to help
I asked the Bristol Controller to ensure you were not flying high speed when they asked for a level for you. The Bristol ATCO applied a speed they thought was appropriate for the situation bearing in mind they would not have known the speed of the ATR inbound
The opposite end was asked for by the ATR and there were no reasons not to accept this approach, at that stage they were a good 30 miles ahead of you, (they were at AMMAN when they asked at this stage you were still east of Lyneham) and with the expected speed reduction to 250kts below FL100 it still was never going to be an issue.
The ATR 42 was asked to give me their best speed for the approach and they kept 240kts for as long as they could.
Although you feel the speed you were given was slow you would however have always been behind the ATR in this scenario had they landed on either end,and I would have either extended your routing with vectors or slowed you down as necessary
As I told you last night you may yourself always ask for the opposite end and if we can accommodate you we will.
By the way it was an Air Wales flight doing a BMI Baby service.
edited as i was concerned that my original posting seemed unfair on the BRS ATCO who was doing everything they could to help
Last edited by flower; 6th Aug 2005 at 18:25.
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flower - didn't you give our guy/gal a speed to slow the easterly arrival to? The watch opposite me usually give me a specific speed or "xxxkts or less, cos he's number x". The only way then that the arrival is "slowed...back a lot more than was anticipated" would be if our guy/gal wasn't given a specific speed
and didn't want to stitch you up, or if the pilot slowed more than was needed, which isn't unusual.
Just wondering.
and didn't want to stitch you up, or if the pilot slowed more than was needed, which isn't unusual.
Just wondering.
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Can't speak for CWL but if it's relatively quiet and no other traffic is going to be delayed (to the extent that they'll notice), I'll fit the odd arrival or departure on the 'wrong' end when asked.
Yes it's a case of if you don't ask, you don't get and most pilots seem to recognise when it's not a good idea to ask but I guess maybe 50% of requests are successful.
Yes it's a case of if you don't ask, you don't get and most pilots seem to recognise when it's not a good idea to ask but I guess maybe 50% of requests are successful.
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Standard Noise,
The Bristol controller was indeed trying to be helpful to myself .
I didn't specify a speed to them just said not high speed below FL100 if they ask, as so many crews do ask if they can ignore the 250kts below FL100 outside CAS. I was anticipating 250kts but in ATC one should never presume
I have emailed the pilot concerned and hopefully they can fully understand the actions, sometimes they get in number 1 and someone else gets delayed.
I must say the crews we work with on an day in day out basis at CWL BRS and EXT are great and usually understand if they should get a couple of minutes delay. I had to really delay an ATR later on that night he was just the unlucky one, I don't like doing it but someone has to be last.
The Bristol controller was indeed trying to be helpful to myself .
I didn't specify a speed to them just said not high speed below FL100 if they ask, as so many crews do ask if they can ignore the 250kts below FL100 outside CAS. I was anticipating 250kts but in ATC one should never presume
I have emailed the pilot concerned and hopefully they can fully understand the actions, sometimes they get in number 1 and someone else gets delayed.
I must say the crews we work with on an day in day out basis at CWL BRS and EXT are great and usually understand if they should get a couple of minutes delay. I had to really delay an ATR later on that night he was just the unlucky one, I don't like doing it but someone has to be last.
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Alterego I used to fly the ATR for the same company and I would always try to get from A to B in the most cost effective way and if coming from STU and RWY30 was in use providing the wind was in limits I would ask for RWY12. What was not on my mind is what can I do to to help rival airlines be more cost effective since they are not paying my salary and why should the captain decide to use RWY30 when he/she has been offered RWY12 and increase his cost and flight time just to save your airline time and money.
I'm now flying the 737 and if I was to take a ATR and a 737 and put them in the same spot on approach say 25 miles out I guarantee the ATR would beat the 737 or any jet for that matter to the runway first everytime, why because jets don't slow down very well and loose height at the same time, where in a ATR on a clear day I could fly it at 200+kts till 5 or 4 miles and slow down and loose height very quickly and that is the great thing about a turboprop it will run rings around a jet on approach to a airport.
Anyway the good guys and gals in the tower would not have cleared the ATR unless they knew for sure they would have got there before you.
And that's the bottom line cos Stone Cold said so.
I'm now flying the 737 and if I was to take a ATR and a 737 and put them in the same spot on approach say 25 miles out I guarantee the ATR would beat the 737 or any jet for that matter to the runway first everytime, why because jets don't slow down very well and loose height at the same time, where in a ATR on a clear day I could fly it at 200+kts till 5 or 4 miles and slow down and loose height very quickly and that is the great thing about a turboprop it will run rings around a jet on approach to a airport.
Anyway the good guys and gals in the tower would not have cleared the ATR unless they knew for sure they would have got there before you.
And that's the bottom line cos Stone Cold said so.
Last edited by Stone Cold; 6th Aug 2005 at 17:03.
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I also gave the ATR the straight in to RWY 12 because I know they can hold 240kts to 4 DME and as Stone Cold says from experience we know the ATR will get in first against a Jet.
Later on that night it would have helped me greatly if an Aircraft had taken an opposite end approach but they elected not to.
Win some lose some.
Stone Cold still haven't had the pleasure on the RT yet, you must be getting loads of rest days
Later on that night it would have helped me greatly if an Aircraft had taken an opposite end approach but they elected not to.
Win some lose some.
Stone Cold still haven't had the pleasure on the RT yet, you must be getting loads of rest days
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Yep I worked my 3 days this week got 4 days off now. Back in work on Tuesday. Spoke to the man from Staines the other day and Timmyboy who has asked me when I'm planning on doing a Porthkerry arrival onto 30 in the 737. You must have requested to work only in the tower and not radar!
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You do get more days off then me then Stone Cold.
Have I been avoiding you on purpose ? Moi
On leave after tonight so will have to wait until the end of August for the pleasure , watch the language else no direct routings
Have I been avoiding you on purpose ? Moi
On leave after tonight so will have to wait until the end of August for the pleasure , watch the language else no direct routings
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After many years of playing both ends against each other, often achieving minimal or no delays, management have decided that between certain hours, we will declare the runway in use and that's it, that will be the runway to be used.
We are getting busier and busier with commercial traffic, and we also have a lot of training by both the military and high performance corporate jet operators, as well as the nbog standard stuff.
It's a shame that it's come to that, because although we often pushed our luck, it was never dangerous, and we always know when to cut our losses.
With a greater emphisis on runway incursions and safety in general, I think this will become the norm' and we will lose the flexibility that enabled us to achieve what was best for the aircraft and us.
Safety has to come first, but I can't help thinking such thinking from the regulators is a wee bit autocratic.
We are getting busier and busier with commercial traffic, and we also have a lot of training by both the military and high performance corporate jet operators, as well as the nbog standard stuff.
It's a shame that it's come to that, because although we often pushed our luck, it was never dangerous, and we always know when to cut our losses.
With a greater emphisis on runway incursions and safety in general, I think this will become the norm' and we will lose the flexibility that enabled us to achieve what was best for the aircraft and us.
Safety has to come first, but I can't help thinking such thinking from the regulators is a wee bit autocratic.
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I agree with niknak... there is a nominated "duty runway" and whilst I will try to accomodate a pilot who requests against the stream, I will not afford that guy any extra priority... seems to me some people want their cake and eat it... expedition and jump the queue.
There are also safety issues related to increased workload, distraction etc that an against the stream approach generates?
File it under "Some of the people some of the time"... it's a fact of life!
There are also safety issues related to increased workload, distraction etc that an against the stream approach generates?
File it under "Some of the people some of the time"... it's a fact of life!
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So it's okay to increase a crews workload and delay a flight just to save another A/c 1- 2 minutes? It's okay on a normal day but doesn't help when the guys are at the end of a long, often interrupted day. It does increase the chance of a mistake such ass identing the wrong ILS.
In a jet there is so little difference in taking the closer runway at CWL. What you save in flight time you lose in extra taxying.
Quite often at CWL we are slowed to stay behind a turboprop when if ATC told us to keep the speed up we could be well past miles before the localiser.
In a jet there is so little difference in taking the closer runway at CWL. What you save in flight time you lose in extra taxying.
Quite often at CWL we are slowed to stay behind a turboprop when if ATC told us to keep the speed up we could be well past miles before the localiser.
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We have to determine an order of approach, that sometimes means the ATRs will be first and sometimes the Jet will be first.
As we get busier and busier you can expect far more speed control whilst vectoring than you currently get.
It can be hard from the cockpit to see the bigger picture, there can be all sorts of reasons for the final sequence we set up.
Perhaps a visit up to ATC and spend a few hours there and not just a few minutes and you may get a better understanding of why sometimes you are number 2.
As it was as I have already explained the BMI Baby was ALWAYS No 2 to the ATR in the situation that they moaned about.
As we get busier and busier you can expect far more speed control whilst vectoring than you currently get.
It can be hard from the cockpit to see the bigger picture, there can be all sorts of reasons for the final sequence we set up.
Perhaps a visit up to ATC and spend a few hours there and not just a few minutes and you may get a better understanding of why sometimes you are number 2.
As it was as I have already explained the BMI Baby was ALWAYS No 2 to the ATR in the situation that they moaned about.
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Quite often at CWL we are slowed to stay behind a turboprop when if ATC told us to keep the speed up we could be well past miles before the localiser.
So lets say you start off about 40 miles out (normal handoff to approach units) and 5 miles behind the 'slow prop'. You're doing 300 Kts because ATC are kind (and it simplifies the maths) and you really think that you can take this guy ahead, or in other words you are doing 5 miles a minute. So it's going to take you simplistically 7 minutes to reach 5DME. The prop meanwhile is doing 240Kts, or 4 miles a minute. In the same 7 minutes you require to reach 5DME, he has reached 7DME. The two immediate problems are that 3NM separation is required and we only have 2, but more importantly, you are still at 300Kts and already getting ready for that go around since you can't lose that speed and be stabilised, then land, in 5NM - at least not without a deal of passenger discomfort. It's going to take a while to reach flap and gear limit speeds if nothing else, unless you pop out those spoilers.
That's a simplistic view, the reality is that somewhere in the equation, the jet is going to have to factor in the 10NM or so it will take to slow from descent speed to a fast approach speed, let alone before it even reaches VRef+ for it's final approach.
Basically, unless you are already abeam the prop or ahead at 40NM, or close to it within about 80NM, (and can maintain 200+ Kts till well established on final) then it's a one horse race which the prop will win everytime.
That's the facts, which ATC staff up and down the land have seen played out many times. Big and fast is not always better