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If we're starting a vote I think BC is wrong too.
But I though most NATS aerodrome units verified and validated the SSR on the ATM before transfer to the centre. If that is the case, why does the centre need to repeat the exercise?
For the benfit of those in other countries where I'm not sure the same procedures apply, in certain circumstances in the UK we can deem SSR data to be validated and verified if the aircraft is coming from another unit that is capable of doing this.
But I though most NATS aerodrome units verified and validated the SSR on the ATM before transfer to the centre. If that is the case, why does the centre need to repeat the exercise?
For the benfit of those in other countries where I'm not sure the same procedures apply, in certain circumstances in the UK we can deem SSR data to be validated and verified if the aircraft is coming from another unit that is capable of doing this.
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There was an incident a few years ago where two aircraft flying south through UK airspace were on transposed SSR codes.
The incident caused a great deal of confusion to both pilots and controllers.
If the codes had been validated correctly, then it probably wouldn't have got as far as it did.
Stick to SOPs, question things that don't seem right and ask for idents when you are supposed to.
The incident caused a great deal of confusion to both pilots and controllers.
If the codes had been validated correctly, then it probably wouldn't have got as far as it did.
Stick to SOPs, question things that don't seem right and ask for idents when you are supposed to.
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Spitoon, ATM is not used to validate and verify. It has a whole load of uses including checking that correct callsign appears after dep, observing that it is following correct route, being able to see order of a/c on final approach, judging approach spacing to decide on lining up a/c etc . . . . I'm no longer an aero atco so I forget the rest. I'm sure some kind soul will quickly list them. But, atm is not a radar and cannot bed used as such.
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It isn't as straight forward as it seems...
I can only offer an opinion from a TC perspective but my understanding is;
Before we can give an aircraft a radar service from LTCC we have to ensure that the Mode A is validated and the Mode C is verified BUT
Some of the LTMA airfields have enhanced ATM procedures so departures from certain airfields will have had the Mode A validated and the Mode C verified by the AIR controller, examples of this are BB and GW but this doesn't apply to departures from LL and KK.
This could lead to some confusion-if you are a TMA North bod you would need to validate the Mode A of a LL departure but not a GW departure, you wouldn't need to do it for a SS BUZ because SS Fin will have done that for you but you would need to do it for a SS CLN because they (normally) come straight from the tower and SS aren't one of the units which validate it for you.
If in doubt I guess the safest thing to do is to get everyone to squawk IDENT becuase that way you don't have to remember which unit will or won't have done it for you. If the pilot squawks ident without asking and you don't challenge it you haven't complied with MATS Part 1 or 2
PS Ident is not required for DM purposes because departures from the LTMA auto DM.
Before we can give an aircraft a radar service from LTCC we have to ensure that the Mode A is validated and the Mode C is verified BUT
Some of the LTMA airfields have enhanced ATM procedures so departures from certain airfields will have had the Mode A validated and the Mode C verified by the AIR controller, examples of this are BB and GW but this doesn't apply to departures from LL and KK.
This could lead to some confusion-if you are a TMA North bod you would need to validate the Mode A of a LL departure but not a GW departure, you wouldn't need to do it for a SS BUZ because SS Fin will have done that for you but you would need to do it for a SS CLN because they (normally) come straight from the tower and SS aren't one of the units which validate it for you.
If in doubt I guess the safest thing to do is to get everyone to squawk IDENT becuase that way you don't have to remember which unit will or won't have done it for you. If the pilot squawks ident without asking and you don't challenge it you haven't complied with MATS Part 1 or 2
PS Ident is not required for DM purposes because departures from the LTMA auto DM.
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PS Ident is not required for DM purposes because departures from the LTMA auto DM.
Not always obvious to TC either of course. In BYPASS the squawk would convert anyway.
Result. LTMA deps can arrive on AC sectors with NO warning, no strips and as BACKGROUND or RSE raw tracks (not always easy to spot, particularly if you aren't looking for/ expecting them)
rgds BEX
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FC
Question, not criticism -
Take your point about what the Manual says, but, can't you identify aircraft on departure? to save the hassle?
Down sarf! as someone has previously mentioned, the majority of times we need to get an aircraft to ident are not for identification puposes but to trigger off computer tracking (not quite code callsign conversion but along the same lines) This sometimes fails to happen automatically if, say, an aircraft is on a direct track and some significant distance off route when entering UK airspace. Or it has arrived at the boundary very early or late. Unfortunately, as pilots, you'd never be aware of when this has happened until we ask you to ident - It's not that we can't see you it's that the computer can't!!!!
Question, not criticism -
Take your point about what the Manual says, but, can't you identify aircraft on departure? to save the hassle?
Down sarf! as someone has previously mentioned, the majority of times we need to get an aircraft to ident are not for identification puposes but to trigger off computer tracking (not quite code callsign conversion but along the same lines) This sometimes fails to happen automatically if, say, an aircraft is on a direct track and some significant distance off route when entering UK airspace. Or it has arrived at the boundary very early or late. Unfortunately, as pilots, you'd never be aware of when this has happened until we ask you to ident - It's not that we can't see you it's that the computer can't!!!!
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Terrain Safe;
The current version of the LTCC MATS 2 doesn't say that SS tower will validate/verify Mode A or C and does say that CLN, DVR and LYD departures need to be identified by LTCC so you're right; it does need updating
Bexil160
The current version of the LTCC MATS 2 states that for departures from airfields with an Auto-DM capability it is not necessary to get aircraft to squawk ident to initiate flat tracking (nothwithstanding the need to get some of them to squawk ident for identification purposes.) I wonder if the incidents that you refer to relate to departures from an LTMA airfield which has auto-dm and no requirement for LTCC bods to ident?
The current version of the LTCC MATS 2 doesn't say that SS tower will validate/verify Mode A or C and does say that CLN, DVR and LYD departures need to be identified by LTCC so you're right; it does need updating
Bexil160
The current version of the LTCC MATS 2 states that for departures from airfields with an Auto-DM capability it is not necessary to get aircraft to squawk ident to initiate flat tracking (nothwithstanding the need to get some of them to squawk ident for identification purposes.) I wonder if the incidents that you refer to relate to departures from an LTMA airfield which has auto-dm and no requirement for LTCC bods to ident?
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At ScACC we cannot ident on departure.
We do not have AUTO DM at all, and airborne times are manually input, to start NAS processing and tracking.
Aircraft show on our system as soon as they are visible to the radar, whether DM'd or not, but we are still required to ident them to validate the Code-Callsign pairing and to verify the Mode C irrespective of whether they have been worked by the departure radar controller.
We are endeavouring to remove this requirement for aircraft that have had their SSR code validated and verified by a "capable" unit, and as I previously mentioned, that only applies at present to LACC/MACC who use the same code-callsign database as us.
To those "down sarf", we do not have background tracks, we can filter manually by height and also by code (rarely used) so if the aircraft is coming our way we always see it.
The main problem is with direct routes, NAS does not always produce a time update, and the aircraft can get transferred before the flight details are sent by OLDI, apologies to Amsterdam and Maastricht (LOL) as this is where it normally happens.
So, referring to the first post of this thread, expect ScACC to ASK for an IDENT on departure, and kindly do not offer one on first contact.
Thank you one and all, I think we have done this to death now !
We do not have AUTO DM at all, and airborne times are manually input, to start NAS processing and tracking.
Aircraft show on our system as soon as they are visible to the radar, whether DM'd or not, but we are still required to ident them to validate the Code-Callsign pairing and to verify the Mode C irrespective of whether they have been worked by the departure radar controller.
We are endeavouring to remove this requirement for aircraft that have had their SSR code validated and verified by a "capable" unit, and as I previously mentioned, that only applies at present to LACC/MACC who use the same code-callsign database as us.
To those "down sarf", we do not have background tracks, we can filter manually by height and also by code (rarely used) so if the aircraft is coming our way we always see it.
The main problem is with direct routes, NAS does not always produce a time update, and the aircraft can get transferred before the flight details are sent by OLDI, apologies to Amsterdam and Maastricht (LOL) as this is where it normally happens.
So, referring to the first post of this thread, expect ScACC to ASK for an IDENT on departure, and kindly do not offer one on first contact.
Thank you one and all, I think we have done this to death now !
