... and maintain
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: YWG ACC
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't flight levels only used above 17,999 feet, i.e. starting at FL180? I thought the entire purpose of flight levels was to refer to altitudes in the standard pressure region where the actual height above the ground could vary significantly, hence why no mention of feet, and also to ensure pilots remembered to switch over their altimeters.
Do other countries have regulations for using the term Flight Level at lower altitudes? What is the reason behind this?
Do other countries have regulations for using the term Flight Level at lower altitudes? What is the reason behind this?
Ohcirrej
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: This is the internet FFS.........
Posts: 2,921
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
but aren't flight levels only used above 17,999 feet, i.e. starting at FL180?
FL40 - bah
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 561
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RustyNail,
completely agree with you.
BTW, there is standard ICAO phraseology. It is;
Instruction to climb/descend aircraft - "Climb/Descend to....."
In the event that confusion may exist - "Climb/Descend to and maintain......
This phraseology comes from the Australian AIP which sources it's information from ICAO documents.
In Oz we use flight numbers from 11,000ft and above, and feet from 10,000ft and below. Our transition altitude is 10,000ft. (Highest mountain in Oz is Mt. Kosciuszko about 7500ft high)
Exactly PPrune Radar. Why confuse things by using a word that means stay in a steady state to mean change to stay in a steady state?
Lets keep the instructions clear and simple by using words in a clear and simple way. KISS
completely agree with you.
BTW, there is standard ICAO phraseology. It is;
Instruction to climb/descend aircraft - "Climb/Descend to....."
In the event that confusion may exist - "Climb/Descend to and maintain......
This phraseology comes from the Australian AIP which sources it's information from ICAO documents.
In Oz we use flight numbers from 11,000ft and above, and feet from 10,000ft and below. Our transition altitude is 10,000ft. (Highest mountain in Oz is Mt. Kosciuszko about 7500ft high)
In English the word 'maintain' refers to something staying in a steady state (i.e. not changing).
Lets keep the instructions clear and simple by using words in a clear and simple way. KISS
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Fort Worth ARTCC ZFW
Posts: 1,155
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rustynail and others...
Don't be so rough on our neighbors to the north... They are using the same phraseology that we use here for the most part. We are not allowed to use just maintain for a climb or decent, but we are required to use maintain to tell them the altitude to stop at... Why??? As stated before, cause some suit decdied it a long time ago.
Now I do agree that ICAO states the requested phraseology to be used. But you have to remember that the rest of the world has less than half of the folks flying in the world. Between Canada and us, we pretty much have a lock on the numbers of pilots using the air <G>....
regards
Scott
Don't be so rough on our neighbors to the north... They are using the same phraseology that we use here for the most part. We are not allowed to use just maintain for a climb or decent, but we are required to use maintain to tell them the altitude to stop at... Why??? As stated before, cause some suit decdied it a long time ago.
Now I do agree that ICAO states the requested phraseology to be used. But you have to remember that the rest of the world has less than half of the folks flying in the world. Between Canada and us, we pretty much have a lock on the numbers of pilots using the air <G>....
regards
Scott
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southampton
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just a point
I was working on the WestEnd a few months ago, quite early in the morning, during the eastbound rush. I'd been up all night and the traffic was building rather rapidly so wasn't on top form.
We received an OLDI (electronic coordination message), and subsequent paper strip, from Shannon on a United into London at FL350. Running right with him, and garbling, was, from memory, an Air France at FL360.
As the RT was really crowded the united had tried to check in a couple of times but kept getting blocked. Eventually I had a gap, so jumped in with my usual;
"United xxx, London, Good Morning. Maintain FL350, direct NIGIT, Ockam 1F arrival"
From what I've read earlier in this thread I was a very lucky chap with his apparent Non-Standard (for a North American) reply;
"Thank you, Descend FL350 Ockam 1F arrival"
Thank goodness he'd said that - and not "maintain FL350" - I managed to quickly ascertain that he was actually at FL390, the level revision from Shannon had not been received, and that he should cancel the descent clearance.
Although a lot of factors combined to make a possible incident here it seems much more logical IMHO that a climb or descent instruction should be accompanied by exactly those words.
As for "Descend and maintain FL280" who cares! it may waste 0.25 of a second but it's not dangerous.
As for "Descend to 2 thousand feet" there is possible cause for confusion here as the KL example showed.
DirtyPierre, it looks as if you work in Brisbaine? Therefore you must get a lot of long-haul, tired, crews coming in. Surely you can grasp that a clearance such as;
"ConfusedAirways xxx Descend to three thousand feet, turn left to three two zero degrees, reduce speed to two two zero knots"
could cause mayhem in the cockpit and, worse still, a level bust etc.
P.S. You may think that's (in your words) "A load of ****e" or "Bollocks!!!!" but don't say that again you've expressed yourself fully in that direction enough times already. KISS I agree with- but it should be KISSS the middle S being Safe.
Rant over
I was working on the WestEnd a few months ago, quite early in the morning, during the eastbound rush. I'd been up all night and the traffic was building rather rapidly so wasn't on top form.
We received an OLDI (electronic coordination message), and subsequent paper strip, from Shannon on a United into London at FL350. Running right with him, and garbling, was, from memory, an Air France at FL360.
As the RT was really crowded the united had tried to check in a couple of times but kept getting blocked. Eventually I had a gap, so jumped in with my usual;
"United xxx, London, Good Morning. Maintain FL350, direct NIGIT, Ockam 1F arrival"
From what I've read earlier in this thread I was a very lucky chap with his apparent Non-Standard (for a North American) reply;
"Thank you, Descend FL350 Ockam 1F arrival"
Thank goodness he'd said that - and not "maintain FL350" - I managed to quickly ascertain that he was actually at FL390, the level revision from Shannon had not been received, and that he should cancel the descent clearance.
Although a lot of factors combined to make a possible incident here it seems much more logical IMHO that a climb or descent instruction should be accompanied by exactly those words.
As for "Descend and maintain FL280" who cares! it may waste 0.25 of a second but it's not dangerous.
As for "Descend to 2 thousand feet" there is possible cause for confusion here as the KL example showed.
DirtyPierre, it looks as if you work in Brisbaine? Therefore you must get a lot of long-haul, tired, crews coming in. Surely you can grasp that a clearance such as;
"ConfusedAirways xxx Descend to three thousand feet, turn left to three two zero degrees, reduce speed to two two zero knots"
could cause mayhem in the cockpit and, worse still, a level bust etc.
P.S. You may think that's (in your words) "A load of ****e" or "Bollocks!!!!" but don't say that again you've expressed yourself fully in that direction enough times already. KISS I agree with- but it should be KISSS the middle S being Safe.
Rant over
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 561
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Brisbane - no i.
Would never ever give anything like this to a pilot.
As for using "to"
Sorry, it is required. I've already outlined the why in previous posts. Read them. Never had any misunderstanding in Oz by using the word "to".
ConfusedAirways xxx Descend to three thousand feet, turn left to three two zero degrees, reduce speed to two two zero knots"
As for using "to"
Sorry, it is required. I've already outlined the why in previous posts. Read them. Never had any misunderstanding in Oz by using the word "to".
