An issue at Blackpool Tonight
Joined: Jun 2004
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From: dorset
At a south coast airport several charter/loco flights land most nights after the official closing time of 2130.They do not pay extension fees for this as far as i am aware.However, any other flight,private or otherwise is usually accepted if they arrange to come in after official closing time and they apply for an extension for which there is a charge. Money makes the world go round,not common sense.
Joined: Apr 2001
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From: Reading, Berkshire
A related issue
This seems to be two threads in one, but my point is against the original subject:
This has touched on a particular frustration for me and colleagues in a share group. Our Airfield becomes Unlicensed at 6pm and licensed again at 8am and they simply will not let anyone take-off or land outside of these times unless you can get someone of authority to be around to sign you in or out (virtually impossible) or if you pay the full extension rate, as already discussed in this thread.
This means that GA pilots cannot take advantage of the extended daylight hours during Summer.
There are unlicensed airfields that allow movements without the tower being manned, so I don't understand why our airfield has this constraint.
This has touched on a particular frustration for me and colleagues in a share group. Our Airfield becomes Unlicensed at 6pm and licensed again at 8am and they simply will not let anyone take-off or land outside of these times unless you can get someone of authority to be around to sign you in or out (virtually impossible) or if you pay the full extension rate, as already discussed in this thread.
This means that GA pilots cannot take advantage of the extended daylight hours during Summer.
There are unlicensed airfields that allow movements without the tower being manned, so I don't understand why our airfield has this constraint.
More than just an ATCO
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From: Up someone's nose
Bern Oulli An ex-Maastricht controller was jailed in Belgium for about 6 months for espionage when caught wuth a scanner outside a military base in Belgium back in the 1970s.
It was alleged by the prosecution that the scanner could be converted into a transmitter to send info back to Russia
Eventually found not guilty and awarded damages of 1 Belgian Franc
It was alleged by the prosecution that the scanner could be converted into a transmitter to send info back to Russia
Eventually found not guilty and awarded damages of 1 Belgian Franc
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From: EUROPE
Hi Sarah
Interesting thread , wonder if the Jetranger operator actually asked if FR had actually paid for their extension (if they actually had one ) ..... or do all the operators/ tenants seem to have different airport operating hours at Blackpool ???? Obviously they dont all get the same commercial treatment or consideration .... that's if their is any at all
Interesting thread , wonder if the Jetranger operator actually asked if FR had actually paid for their extension (if they actually had one ) ..... or do all the operators/ tenants seem to have different airport operating hours at Blackpool ???? Obviously they dont all get the same commercial treatment or consideration .... that's if their is any at all
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From: UK
Sarah
There could be a variety of reasons why the airport 'closes' yet is till open for PPR IFR traffic. The most likely one is that there is angreement with the local council over how many post 'official airport closure' flights they are allowed in a year & the best way to control this is by the use of PPR.
Had the heli have contacted them before the 'official' closure time then he might have been accepted & just at the normal price. As he didn't they are quite right to charge an 'additional' fee.
You have to consider that some of the required services (ATC, fire etc...) may be on rosta'd breaks at that time & therefore not 'legaly' able to accept the heli if the required number of people/departments where not in place.
There could be a variety of reasons why the airport 'closes' yet is till open for PPR IFR traffic. The most likely one is that there is angreement with the local council over how many post 'official airport closure' flights they are allowed in a year & the best way to control this is by the use of PPR.
Had the heli have contacted them before the 'official' closure time then he might have been accepted & just at the normal price. As he didn't they are quite right to charge an 'additional' fee.
You have to consider that some of the required services (ATC, fire etc...) may be on rosta'd breaks at that time & therefore not 'legaly' able to accept the heli if the required number of people/departments where not in place.
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On the topic of use of scanners and, particularly, transceivers, I'm with HD all the way. Having had someone messing around with a transmitter on the frequency that I'm controlling on, I'm hoping not to ever repeat the experience.
As to airport extension fees, it's just the way the world works. Airports, certainly in the UK, are businesses and in this respect they use charges to influence cutomer behaviour. The extension fee bears little relationship to the costs of keeping the airport open (normally needs ATC staff - controllers, engineers, support people - fire cover - lots for a big aircraft - security - required by DfT etc. all on some sort of overtime dyty) but is intended to deter casual demands for extensions whilst still providing a service to airport customers.
I mean no disrespect to the general aviation community but the customers that an airport values are those that operate commercial aeroplanes. A commercial aircraft operator, particularly one that is establishing a new base or that drives a hard bargain, probably pays little in landing fees but buys as much fuel as the local club does in a month, the passengers generate money for the airport in the shops, cafes, restaurants and car parks. It's just business I'm afraid - and basic economics.
As to airport extension fees, it's just the way the world works. Airports, certainly in the UK, are businesses and in this respect they use charges to influence cutomer behaviour. The extension fee bears little relationship to the costs of keeping the airport open (normally needs ATC staff - controllers, engineers, support people - fire cover - lots for a big aircraft - security - required by DfT etc. all on some sort of overtime dyty) but is intended to deter casual demands for extensions whilst still providing a service to airport customers.
I mean no disrespect to the general aviation community but the customers that an airport values are those that operate commercial aeroplanes. A commercial aircraft operator, particularly one that is establishing a new base or that drives a hard bargain, probably pays little in landing fees but buys as much fuel as the local club does in a month, the passengers generate money for the airport in the shops, cafes, restaurants and car parks. It's just business I'm afraid - and basic economics.
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From: Fort Worth ARTCC ZFW
Sarah;
Move to the US, we let everyone listed to anything <G>... As to the paying for services... Well it doesn't matter what you are flying, it is just about the same workload to us as controllers. Everyone should pay the same.
regards
Scott
Move to the US, we let everyone listed to anything <G>... As to the paying for services... Well it doesn't matter what you are flying, it is just about the same workload to us as controllers. Everyone should pay the same.
regards
Scott
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From: wherever I lay my headset
Rej
OK how about this... Imagine you're sat at your military airfield (not worrying about the cost or commercial aspects) The squadron cancels night-flying but you have accepted two additional civil moves on the basis that "you were going to be open anyway"... then while you're waiting for these to pitch up, another aircraft comes on frequency, without having made prior arrangement, and says "ah, you're open...." Would you be so happy to be "providing a service" then?
Sorry you can call it business, or deterent if you like. It may seem logical to accept traffic if you're open, but I feel a line has to be drawn somewhere. If asked to provide a service beyond your normal operating hours you are entitled to charge what you like... and if that charge is unacceptable, they always have the choice to go somewhere else...
Surely the normal landing, parking fees etc would suffice- afer all an open airfield is an open airfield
Sorry you can call it business, or deterent if you like. It may seem logical to accept traffic if you're open, but I feel a line has to be drawn somewhere. If asked to provide a service beyond your normal operating hours you are entitled to charge what you like... and if that charge is unacceptable, they always have the choice to go somewhere else...
Last edited by Pierre Argh; 18th June 2005 at 12:03.
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From: On top of the world
Just to stir the pot a little - if the pilot had done a proper pre-flight briefing, would he not have known the airfield would close @ 2100? Or, perhaps coming from Preston , he knew RYR had extensions & was trying his luck ! I wonder where he would have gone if permission had been refused ? ;-)
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From: where should i be today????
Pierre Argh
'Would you be so happy to be "providing a service" then?'
If the ac wanted an approach for training then, subject to the normal fees for an approach, and the criteria laid down in local orders then yes I would accept him. If it was for a landing then he would require to have a PPR and we would have known about it coming in anyway.
Maybe we do things a little different in the military because we don't have the pressures of airport authorities putting a price on everything due to the need to make profits. I'm not saying its is right or wrong but that seems to be the way it is. I would always advocate that, within the confines of our regulations and provided that controllers are not overloaded, then why not give a little back to the the people who pay their taxes (my opinion - not necessarily that of our lords and masters, but at then end of the day I am paid to make, and capable of making, such decisions.)
'Would you be so happy to be "providing a service" then?'
If the ac wanted an approach for training then, subject to the normal fees for an approach, and the criteria laid down in local orders then yes I would accept him. If it was for a landing then he would require to have a PPR and we would have known about it coming in anyway.
Maybe we do things a little different in the military because we don't have the pressures of airport authorities putting a price on everything due to the need to make profits. I'm not saying its is right or wrong but that seems to be the way it is. I would always advocate that, within the confines of our regulations and provided that controllers are not overloaded, then why not give a little back to the the people who pay their taxes (my opinion - not necessarily that of our lords and masters, but at then end of the day I am paid to make, and capable of making, such decisions.)
Last edited by rej; 18th June 2005 at 21:40.
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From: North West UK
As an aside - Blackpool ATC's hours are '0600-2000(z) and by arrangement'. If Blackpool are open late to handle inbound traffic (especially commercial), wouldn't it be reasonable for a NOTAM/ Nav Warning to be issued so that traffic operating in the vicinity knows to call them?
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From: Europe
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Now, I wonder how many this product can outrage
Home Radar Set
Penalty for Rule 1 breach - possible summary dismissal of offending posts with no explanation or warning.
Now, I wonder how many this product can outrage
Home Radar Set
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From: alton
Jerricho- thanks for the advice sonny. I will treat everything you say with the respect it deserves. You also seem to spend an awful lot of time on this forum. You must get out more and expose yourself to the big bad world a bit and not get so easily offended on others behalf.
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From: Euroland
"All movements outside published hours must be requested before 1500 on the day required."
That little gem of information is available to everyone planning a flight to Blackpool.
Perhaps the fee should be £150 for out of hours operation and £300 for out of hours operation and no pre-flight planning.
Of course unless the aerodrome and ATZ were notamed as being active after hours, some pilot could just happen to be operating close to the field (obeying the 500ft rule of course) without ATC being able to tell them anything at all!!!.................they might even be able to arrange a landing on private land just outside the airfield fence for £50
As for HDs comments. Having had one of my R/T transmissions to London ATCC some years ago quoted in the Grass Cuttings section of the GATCO mag without my or any official permission, I can't see where the problem is provideed people can have a sense of humour!
Regards,
DFC
That little gem of information is available to everyone planning a flight to Blackpool.
Perhaps the fee should be £150 for out of hours operation and £300 for out of hours operation and no pre-flight planning.
Of course unless the aerodrome and ATZ were notamed as being active after hours, some pilot could just happen to be operating close to the field (obeying the 500ft rule of course) without ATC being able to tell them anything at all!!!.................they might even be able to arrange a landing on private land just outside the airfield fence for £50
As for HDs comments. Having had one of my R/T transmissions to London ATCC some years ago quoted in the Grass Cuttings section of the GATCO mag without my or any official permission, I can't see where the problem is provideed people can have a sense of humour!
Regards,
DFC