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Egkk Ndb 26l

Old 15th Jun 2005, 14:07
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Egkk Ndb 26l

Anyone know why there is no such approach seeing as the beacon is there? There is one on 08R. Seems odd to me, specialy with all the work going on there at the moment.

Cheers

Splat
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Old 15th Jun 2005, 15:02
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ATC will give you either an SRA...or more likely vectors to the visual....Ive done the visual...the last two nights..Sun, Mon.

Cheers

H
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Old 15th Jun 2005, 15:08
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I agree, the same for me the last few nights. But my question still stands, and it's just a query, I'm not suggesting there is anything wrong with things as they are, just curious.

Cheers

Splat
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Old 15th Jun 2005, 15:30
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It seems that NATS are retreating from the use of NDBs generally. The HRW NDB at Hounslow Municipal has been u/s for over a year now, and has been NOTAMd to be so until the end of the year. If no-one complains, it'll be withdrawn as a waste of electricity and rateable value.

I wouldn't wonder that LGW is just the same, particularly as NATS have to pay rent for the ground they're planted in.

With GPS, triple INS, and MLS coming in , the only use for ADF is listening to Richie Benaud and the Ashes.
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Old 15th Jun 2005, 15:40
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Capt H

The amusing thing is that having turned off the beacon to see if anyone complains, we have now had to add notes to the briefing material to beware of false localizer capture from north and south....and a good way to check the validity of the localizer would be.........answers on a postcard!
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Old 15th Jun 2005, 16:25
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Splat - to answer your original question, my understanding is that the 08R NDB procedure was introduced the last time the 08R ILS was replaced some years ago - probably took longer to do the work back then!

The cost and time involved with creating a new procedure are not worthwhile for a 10 day outage of the ILS!

Don't know why 26L never had a 'procedure' to the same extent. I don't expect either beacon will be around for many more years though.

Regards

PA
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Old 15th Jun 2005, 18:14
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This thread reminds me of the early seventies when I did I/R and base checks on the Britannia (No Sims) called DUN-SEA-MAYS. It was possible to fulfill all the CAA requirements in less than 40 minutes including NDB tacking to and from DUN, VOR tracking to and from SEA followed by a hold at MAY and a 3 engine ILS with a go around followed by radar vectors to a 4 engine ILS and landing on 26.
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Old 15th Jun 2005, 20:06
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We've also suggested NDB appraoches using the same aids for Northern Runway ops to improve arrival rate over the SRA, but no joy.

With GPS, triple INS, and MLS coming in , the only use for ADF is listening to Richie Benaud and the Ashes.
Sounds like a geriatric pop group!

I don't think we'll ever see anything of MLS. P-RNAV to ILS will be the coming thing, with GPS when Europe has its own satellites.

Cheers,
The Odd One
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Old 15th Jun 2005, 20:10
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and a good way to check the validity of the localizer would be
Quite right, a very usefull back up in this age of electronics and wiggly amps, I and most of my collegues tuned it up for every approach. I've taken to tuning the London VOR but it's not actually on the airfield, better than nothing though. Who do we complain to I wonder?, direct to NATS or via an air safety report perhaps, trouble is it's been missing for a year so the case is getting a bit thin.
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Old 16th Jun 2005, 08:06
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Hang on a minute, haven't we been there before - with Stn where those who knew better withdrew the 23 OM/NDB only to be met with a torrent of complaints based on the arguments stated above.

After a suitable pause to avoid red faces, the SSD was introduced!

Cheers,
mcdhu
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Old 16th Jun 2005, 09:05
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I was looking thtough the list of arrivals in the fmgc the otherday and found an RNAV arrival and approach for LGW.The arrival was based on a short(day?) and long(night?)track around East Grinstead.Ithas been in the database for 2 months but we dont have charts for it yet.
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Old 16th Jun 2005, 09:12
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Cornwallis...

There is a P-RNAV trial pending and we're all just waiting for somebody to be able to fly it! It'll only be available at the very quietest times though, so as not to affect other traffic. Would come in handy at the moment though!

Initially only on 26L but will be extended to 08R at some juncture

(Not that the ruddy night shift's are quiet any longer!)
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Old 16th Jun 2005, 17:32
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RNAV Approaches at Gatwick

The RNAV Initial Approach Procedures (RIAPs) and RNP 0.3 Final Approaches are available now at Gatwick, and have been in use for the last month or so.

The RIAPs are based on Precision Area Navigation (P-RNAV), and are available to anyone that is 'approved' by their CAA Flight Ops department to fly them.

The RNAV Final Approaches are RNP 0.3, and require a similar 'approval' from the operators' CAA.

A number of aircraft have flown the procedures now, and the results in terms of accuracy with the lateral and vertical, CDA compliant, profiles are excellent.

There is therefore an alternative available to SRAs and NDB approaches. RNAV procedures, including P-RNAV and RNP, look set to spread across Europe.
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Old 16th Jun 2005, 19:11
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Making an approach last week for 08R. Got snatched by ATC for a straight in NDB approach about 6000' at 300 kts. Caught us by surprise as we had planned a P-RNAV. We opted to continue with the P-RNAV approach and so watched the aircraft perform this feat. (My first experience other than simulator training). Pure F***ing Magic. Definatley time to say goodbye to the dear old NDB. (They were originally planned to be phased out by 2001 I believe)
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Old 16th Jun 2005, 20:06
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Witraz,

Funnily enough I've heard exactly that comment, Pure Fecking Magic, from others who have flown the P-RNAV and RNP approaches at Gatwick. It seems to do what it says on the tin (or the procedure plates in this case)!
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Old 16th Jun 2005, 23:49
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If a anyone wants to complain about the HRW NDB being off the air, get in contact with Heathrow ATC Operations. I'm sure your airline will have the numbers/email. If not, PM me.
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Old 23rd Jun 2005, 09:47
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Where can i get a copy of the rnav approachfor 26L?They should do one for 26R,instead of messing around with SRAs
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Old 24th Jun 2005, 18:33
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Cornwallis,

The Instrument Plates for both the RNAV Initial Approaches and the RNP Final Approaches at Gatwick should be available in the AIP, as they were published as an AIP Supplement.

An RNAV approach is planned to Rwy 26R at Gatwick. There is however an issue with the runway being designated a Non Instrument runway and then publishing an Instrument Approach to it. Discussions are on-going between NATS and the CAA on this topic. Initial procedure designs have already been drafted, and a procedure will hopefully be introduced soon.
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