London Info over the Irish Sea
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London Info over the Irish Sea
On the only two occasions that I crossed the Irish Sea last year, Dublin handed me over to London Info on 124.75. But on neither occasion was I able to contact them.
On the first occasion I was up around 5000ft, and on the second around 2500ft.
Someone mentioned before that they could get London Info in this area on a difference frequency (I think it was 125.475), even though it wasn't the published one for this area.
I'm just wondering what would the position be, if I was handed over to London Info on 124.75, couldn't get them, and then tried them on a different frequency? Would I get through to the controller that was expecting me, or would I just be causing total confusion?
The reason I ask is because confusion is exactly what seemed to happen last time, when I followed what I thought was correct procedure. When I failed to reach London Info on the hand over frequency, I returned to Dublin. They told me to "contact Valley on xxx.xx or if you can't reach them, contact Liverpool on xxx.xx" Three attempts to contact Valley, and I was greeted with a "Valley is closed however you can maintain a listening watch on this frequency if you wish. "
Being over water, I wanted at least an alerting service, so I declined this, and advised changing to Liverpool. It took another 10 minutes before I was able to make contact with Liverpool. 10 minutes when if I had had an engine failure, I would be going swimming without anyone knowing, other than Liverpool traffic high enough to hear my mayday. Anyway, when I did make contact with Liverpool, they were extremely busy, and clearly not expecting me on frequency. However I quickly gave them my info and got a FIS.
I'm just wondering would I have avoided trying to call a closed station, and popping up unannounced on a busy frequency, and avoided missing an alerting service, by contacting London Info on a different frequency, or would I have caused even more confusion?
As an aside the first time this happened, I was at 5,000ft or so, went back to Dublin, who handed me over to Liverpool. I made contact at first attempt, and they were expecting me.
On the first occasion I was up around 5000ft, and on the second around 2500ft.
Someone mentioned before that they could get London Info in this area on a difference frequency (I think it was 125.475), even though it wasn't the published one for this area.
I'm just wondering what would the position be, if I was handed over to London Info on 124.75, couldn't get them, and then tried them on a different frequency? Would I get through to the controller that was expecting me, or would I just be causing total confusion?
The reason I ask is because confusion is exactly what seemed to happen last time, when I followed what I thought was correct procedure. When I failed to reach London Info on the hand over frequency, I returned to Dublin. They told me to "contact Valley on xxx.xx or if you can't reach them, contact Liverpool on xxx.xx" Three attempts to contact Valley, and I was greeted with a "Valley is closed however you can maintain a listening watch on this frequency if you wish. "
Being over water, I wanted at least an alerting service, so I declined this, and advised changing to Liverpool. It took another 10 minutes before I was able to make contact with Liverpool. 10 minutes when if I had had an engine failure, I would be going swimming without anyone knowing, other than Liverpool traffic high enough to hear my mayday. Anyway, when I did make contact with Liverpool, they were extremely busy, and clearly not expecting me on frequency. However I quickly gave them my info and got a FIS.
I'm just wondering would I have avoided trying to call a closed station, and popping up unannounced on a busy frequency, and avoided missing an alerting service, by contacting London Info on a different frequency, or would I have caused even more confusion?
As an aside the first time this happened, I was at 5,000ft or so, went back to Dublin, who handed me over to Liverpool. I made contact at first attempt, and they were expecting me.
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Remember 121.5 would be a great "listening Watch" frequency with "Alerting Service" and not only would you get Dublin - but everybody else as well - including the high level Liverpool and non-Liverpool traffic.
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Mmmm...All but two of my cross-water trips (all single-engine) have been in company, so we maintain our own frequency to monitor each other for potential mishaps.
On my solo crossings, I maintained a listening watch on 121.5 (as KeyGrip has posted). Don't forget, ships and airliners listen in too.
I have been to LATCC (West Drayton) and seen the valuable but limited service thay are able to offer (no disrespect, guys & gals). Whereas D&D can have a quicker handle on things if it all goes pear-shaped.
I used D&D in anger on one of my two solo crossings...got stuck in IMC crossing the oggin in a VFR aircraft with not even a turn & slip. D&D (and a BA inbound to LHR, and a certain SAR helicopter) saved my bacon, but at least I didn't have to change frequency. Many lessons learned!
On my solo crossings, I maintained a listening watch on 121.5 (as KeyGrip has posted). Don't forget, ships and airliners listen in too.
I have been to LATCC (West Drayton) and seen the valuable but limited service thay are able to offer (no disrespect, guys & gals). Whereas D&D can have a quicker handle on things if it all goes pear-shaped.
I used D&D in anger on one of my two solo crossings...got stuck in IMC crossing the oggin in a VFR aircraft with not even a turn & slip. D&D (and a BA inbound to LHR, and a certain SAR helicopter) saved my bacon, but at least I didn't have to change frequency. Many lessons learned!
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Dublin
There is something odd about radio reception in this part of the world,may be weather related. By way of example going Lpl - Dub, last week at fl50 talked to London info all the way to Liffy.
On the way back about 5 hours later , I couldnt raise London at all and only started to hear aircraft talking to them when I was a few miles off Holyhead I didnt hear their replies at all. This is not the first time I have experienced this.
Valley dont work weekends and if you call they get shirty and tell you they are listening watch only for SAR. You've obviously interupted the blokes enjoyment of the telly!
You can raise Ronaldsway mid chanel but they wont give you a service.
Just put 121.5 on and listen out.
You dont usually get scouseport at that level much before Llandudno by which time youre comming down anyway to clear the class A.
There is something odd about radio reception in this part of the world,may be weather related. By way of example going Lpl - Dub, last week at fl50 talked to London info all the way to Liffy.
On the way back about 5 hours later , I couldnt raise London at all and only started to hear aircraft talking to them when I was a few miles off Holyhead I didnt hear their replies at all. This is not the first time I have experienced this.
Valley dont work weekends and if you call they get shirty and tell you they are listening watch only for SAR. You've obviously interupted the blokes enjoyment of the telly!
You can raise Ronaldsway mid chanel but they wont give you a service.
Just put 121.5 on and listen out.
You dont usually get scouseport at that level much before Llandudno by which time youre comming down anyway to clear the class A.
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but they wont give you a service
Did a stoopid night navex out of Liverpool once - Cessna 172, thunderstorms and clouds all over (but not really near enough to cause heartache).
Left "The Pool" through Whitegate, planned round the south, up the East, and back Westbound across the top of Manchester zone to re-enter at Burtonwood.
Asked Manchester for a listening watch - they politely said "FOAD, too busy". Tried some RAF field to the East/South East (forgotten who), closed for the night (Sheffield didn't exist then). Called Leeds, closing.
Called 121.5 and asked for listening watch for single engine aircraft over Pennines, at night, in fairly scabby weather. Their response was "Call Manchester, 119.4". I replied that I'd already asked and that they refused service. "Call Manchester, 119.4 in two minutes. They WILL give you a service".
I called Manchester and they were falling over themselves to give me a service. Would love to know what was said to them on the landline.
Just shows that calling 121.5 (at least in the U.K.) BEFORE somebody bricks in all the doors and windows is not a bad thing when the options are reducing and you are still airborne.
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Keygrip - as an aside your post got me thinking about the implications of Manchester refusing a service. You werent asking for a flight info service so you werent expecting traffic info - not by the sound of it were you worried about too many other aircraft being around given the weather. So you were understandably asking them to listen out in case you had a problem which they refused to do.
Firstly I do not see what the volme of traffic they were handling had to do with anything - presumably you would only be requiring their service if you had a problem and now to my point, if you had simply remained on their frequency and had a problem and transmitted a Pan or Mayday they would have been obliged to give you the service anyway!
Makes you tempted to say ok tell you what since you cant give me a service just listen out for my Pan or Mayday will you in case I need to make one.
Maybe I dont really understand what the legal implications of a controller agreeing to provide a listening watch are - perhaps some one will enlighten us?
Firstly I do not see what the volme of traffic they were handling had to do with anything - presumably you would only be requiring their service if you had a problem and now to my point, if you had simply remained on their frequency and had a problem and transmitted a Pan or Mayday they would have been obliged to give you the service anyway!
Makes you tempted to say ok tell you what since you cant give me a service just listen out for my Pan or Mayday will you in case I need to make one.
Maybe I dont really understand what the legal implications of a controller agreeing to provide a listening watch are - perhaps some one will enlighten us?
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Thanks guys for your responses.
I did consider changing my one radio to 121.5, but rightly or wrongly decided I was better off on Liverpools frequency.
But really the question that I would like to get an answer to is:
dp
I did consider changing my one radio to 121.5, but rightly or wrongly decided I was better off on Liverpools frequency.
But really the question that I would like to get an answer to is:
would I have avoided trying to call a closed station, and popping up unannounced on a busy frequency, and avoided missing an alerting service, by contacting London Info on a different frequency, or would I have caused even more confusion?
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Pprune Radar - I doubt there is one.
Fuji - only thought is the "Alerting Service" that the UK offers (unlike the USA - my major complaint with their R/T).
I 'spose if ATC accepted me as a "listening watch" then they may feel obliged to keep one wary eye on my transponder return (in case it stops doing it) - and that fractionally munches up their facilities and resources.
Dublipilot - personally, I would have either stayed with Dublin and simply 'refuse' to leave their frequency until I could get somebody else, or I would have made 100% sure of contacting somebody, on any frequency (Manchester Radar work out there at that level?) and explain that I couldn't get through on the promulgated frequency and just wanted somebody to be aware of the fact that I was there (and where I should be next).
I will always remember one of the senior Manchester controllers beating in to me "NEVER fly with a problem - pass it on to somebody, anybody, on the ground and then concentrate on flying the aircraft until we can get you what you need".
Whilst we do, obviously, try to limit the workload of the folks that we rely on - the same controller also said "Talking to aeroplanes - it's what we do - it's what we wanted to do when we applied for the job".
Fuji - only thought is the "Alerting Service" that the UK offers (unlike the USA - my major complaint with their R/T).
I 'spose if ATC accepted me as a "listening watch" then they may feel obliged to keep one wary eye on my transponder return (in case it stops doing it) - and that fractionally munches up their facilities and resources.
Dublipilot - personally, I would have either stayed with Dublin and simply 'refuse' to leave their frequency until I could get somebody else, or I would have made 100% sure of contacting somebody, on any frequency (Manchester Radar work out there at that level?) and explain that I couldn't get through on the promulgated frequency and just wanted somebody to be aware of the fact that I was there (and where I should be next).
I will always remember one of the senior Manchester controllers beating in to me "NEVER fly with a problem - pass it on to somebody, anybody, on the ground and then concentrate on flying the aircraft until we can get you what you need".
Whilst we do, obviously, try to limit the workload of the folks that we rely on - the same controller also said "Talking to aeroplanes - it's what we do - it's what we wanted to do when we applied for the job".
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BRL/Keygrip,
Could you move this thread to the ATC forum?
I don't want to cross post it, but I might have more luck there, in getting the key question answered.
ie. should I have tried to contact London Info on another frequency than I was given in the handover, or would that have just caused more confusion?
Thank you.
ps. If you prefer that I cross post it, let me know
Could you move this thread to the ATC forum?
I don't want to cross post it, but I might have more luck there, in getting the key question answered.
ie. should I have tried to contact London Info on another frequency than I was given in the handover, or would that have just caused more confusion?
Thank you.
ps. If you prefer that I cross post it, let me know
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DublinPilot,
I think that the three London Info frequencies (124.75, 124.6 and 125.47) are handled by just one person at Swanwick (or is it still West Drayton?).
Brooklands
I think that the three London Info frequencies (124.75, 124.6 and 125.47) are handled by just one person at Swanwick (or is it still West Drayton?).
Brooklands
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What are the odds? Pretty good I would say.
121.5 is monitored by all the overflying airline stuff and by marine vessels, too.
Even if you don't get DIRECT contact with ATC on 121.5 (but the position in mind did get Dublin on VHF) then you can almost certainly get a relay to some ATC unit through some other operator.
Even if Valley did suggest they didn't work at weekends - they will still monitor 121.5 (and they are the ones with the helibeaters sitting on the ramp just waiting for that very instance). Who better to talk to?
121.5 is monitored by all the overflying airline stuff and by marine vessels, too.
Even if you don't get DIRECT contact with ATC on 121.5 (but the position in mind did get Dublin on VHF) then you can almost certainly get a relay to some ATC unit through some other operator.
Even if Valley did suggest they didn't work at weekends - they will still monitor 121.5 (and they are the ones with the helibeaters sitting on the ramp just waiting for that very instance). Who better to talk to?
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I work on the FIS service which is now at Swanwick. We use all three freqs together subject to workload. If it is busy we tend to split off the 124.6 (SE freq) which tends to be the busier. When crossing the Irish Sea via Anglesey or Cardigan Bay you are correct in saying that the correct freq is 124.75, however the transmitter site for the North freq 125.47 is on Snaefell on the Isle of Man and I would have no problem if you were to call me on that. Our most important concern is your safety particularly when crossing mountains such as North Wales or the Irish Sea.
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I've raised this issue a couple of times previously.
IMHO, the reason that 124.75 doesn't work right where it is printed on the chart off Holyhead is that the transmitter at Clee Hill is shadowed by Snowdon. The signal on 125.47 is good however and you speak to the same person, in my experience anyway.
I don't know what it takes to get a thing like this changed, however. It would be a simple matter to change the chart, but despite raising the issue directly with controllers at London info (terrific peole, by the way) the wheels of bureacracy grind exceeding slow and the current edition still has the misleading 124.75.
Perhaps the 'authorities' don't appreciate that it's fairly lonely out over the Irish sea when the military have gone home and Dublin have lost interest because you are in UK FIR. Putting the 125.47 on the chart would make a big difference for those who don't know about this problem.
In the past crossing from Arklow I've had to make big diversions around so-called '24Hr' danger areas because the military who are supposed to be responsible are in the pub and I didn't have the Northern England chart which does show the 125.47. I write it on the S. England chart in indelible pen now!
IMHO, the reason that 124.75 doesn't work right where it is printed on the chart off Holyhead is that the transmitter at Clee Hill is shadowed by Snowdon. The signal on 125.47 is good however and you speak to the same person, in my experience anyway.
I don't know what it takes to get a thing like this changed, however. It would be a simple matter to change the chart, but despite raising the issue directly with controllers at London info (terrific peole, by the way) the wheels of bureacracy grind exceeding slow and the current edition still has the misleading 124.75.
Perhaps the 'authorities' don't appreciate that it's fairly lonely out over the Irish sea when the military have gone home and Dublin have lost interest because you are in UK FIR. Putting the 125.47 on the chart would make a big difference for those who don't know about this problem.
In the past crossing from Arklow I've had to make big diversions around so-called '24Hr' danger areas because the military who are supposed to be responsible are in the pub and I didn't have the Northern England chart which does show the 125.47. I write it on the S. England chart in indelible pen now!
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From what you say I think it'd be more effective to raise it with the folks at the CAA who make the chart as it's essentially a chart mark-up issue? I don't have chart with me at work, but isn't there contact info on the chart you could feedback to?
Andy
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For the original poster..
All UK ATC units provide alerting service.
If you listen out on an area control frequency covering the area they will respond to your Mayday Call - BUT DONT CALL THEM UNLESS YOU'RE IN DISTRESS.
In the case of the Irish Sea the best R/T cover would be Manchester on 128.05 or London 135.57. ( Cover will be better than 121.5 )
By adopting this listening procedure you may also get the opportunity to relay your message through other aircraft should the need arise.
All UK ATC units provide alerting service.
If you listen out on an area control frequency covering the area they will respond to your Mayday Call - BUT DONT CALL THEM UNLESS YOU'RE IN DISTRESS.
In the case of the Irish Sea the best R/T cover would be Manchester on 128.05 or London 135.57. ( Cover will be better than 121.5 )
By adopting this listening procedure you may also get the opportunity to relay your message through other aircraft should the need arise.