Terminal 5 -Effect on Traffic
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Terminal 5 -Effect on Traffic
I would be grateful if you learned folks on this forum could give a pilot an ATC's perspective on what effects you believe the opening of Terminal 5 will have on Traffic flow, congestion, increased workloads for ATC etc. It strikes me that from a Human Factors point of view it could create a substantial burden on a group of people that are already working at max capacity.
Thanks
Tigs2
Thanks
Tigs2
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Effect of T5? How soon do we reckon BA will start clamouring for preferential easterly ops?
Don't get me started on human factors!
From Heathrow Tower's point of view, it will have massive effects. At the same time as T5 opening, we're moving to the new tower, and with it a new system of data display (electronic instead of paper), and all sorts of other factors (different view of the airfield, different way of working, different way of co-ordinating with other positions in the tower).
Coping with all these new things at one time is going to be a HF nightmare.
Unless things are changed, our capacity as an airfield will decrease. to get around this, the idea is to have three ground controllers rather than two, but will we have the staff (both ATCO and Lighting Operator) to provide that? Interesting question. Of course, a lot of this new equipment and working practice is being driven by accountants and engineers, who with all due respect have little idea about ATC and how seemingly insignificant titbits of information from various sources enable an aerodrome ATCO to keep traffic moving in a busy scenario.
Even if things do improve, eveyone understands that the one thing that will suffer under the new procedures and equipment in the new tower is flexibility. Expect things to slow down.
Don't get me started on human factors!
From Heathrow Tower's point of view, it will have massive effects. At the same time as T5 opening, we're moving to the new tower, and with it a new system of data display (electronic instead of paper), and all sorts of other factors (different view of the airfield, different way of working, different way of co-ordinating with other positions in the tower).
Coping with all these new things at one time is going to be a HF nightmare.
Unless things are changed, our capacity as an airfield will decrease. to get around this, the idea is to have three ground controllers rather than two, but will we have the staff (both ATCO and Lighting Operator) to provide that? Interesting question. Of course, a lot of this new equipment and working practice is being driven by accountants and engineers, who with all due respect have little idea about ATC and how seemingly insignificant titbits of information from various sources enable an aerodrome ATCO to keep traffic moving in a busy scenario.
Even if things do improve, eveyone understands that the one thing that will suffer under the new procedures and equipment in the new tower is flexibility. Expect things to slow down.
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Correct me if I'm wrong....... but isn't the plan for us to be in the new tower in Oct 2006 and Terminal 5 doesn't officially become operational until 2008.
Does that mean we get to sit around and drink coffee all day and watch the chaos in Terminals 3 & 4??
Does that mean we get to sit around and drink coffee all day and watch the chaos in Terminals 3 & 4??
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AFAIK nobody 'our end' knows how much of the T5 area will be in use at that point.
Estimates put it at an extra 30 mins walk each way (to the base of the tower) if you don't get delayed by security.
And that's parking in central area.
It will be interesting the first time that there are long queues at staff search and people start going home at 1430 without the afternoon watch in. When was the last time Heathrow closed?
Estimates put it at an extra 30 mins walk each way (to the base of the tower) if you don't get delayed by security.
And that's parking in central area.
It will be interesting the first time that there are long queues at staff search and people start going home at 1430 without the afternoon watch in. When was the last time Heathrow closed?
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Thanks for your replies so far folks, its all a bit worrying really. By the sounds of it, situation normal, in that it does not appear that the authorities have consulted with you the experts prior to implementation of their plan. I was chatting to a controller mate at dinner the other night, he is not at LHR but was saying the T5 issue looks set to cause lots of ground taxying problems.
Gonzo
What is being done to help you guys cope with the huge number of Human Factors issues? Have heard that Eurocontrol have recommended Human Factors training, but untill it is mandated by UK authorities there will be no money available for NATS personnel. The only reason that all Flight crew and Maintenance techs have to do it now (and get funded) is the CAA, JAA mandate.
Gonzo
What is being done to help you guys cope with the huge number of Human Factors issues? Have heard that Eurocontrol have recommended Human Factors training, but untill it is mandated by UK authorities there will be no money available for NATS personnel. The only reason that all Flight crew and Maintenance techs have to do it now (and get funded) is the CAA, JAA mandate.
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Tigs2, you asked....
My answer..........
I think you get my drift....
In itself, T5 shouldn't cause too many problems. In fact, many people believe it might solve a few, such as number of stands (despite the fact that as soon as T5 opens, more development work is going to begin elsewhere on the airfield that will mean an overall reduction in the number of stands for the foreseeable future). There are rumours that BA will want to move all their nightstopping a/c from T5 to their maintenance areas for the night, and back again to T5 for the morning.
The taxying problems will come when BAA want to utilise the capacity that T5 gives the airport in terms of pax, and mixed mode is introduced. I believe we're going down the road (if it's introduced) of northbounds off 27R, and southbounds off 27L etc. This will work for perhaps 20 minutes, but then I reckon the whole airfield will grind to a halt. Bear in mind that there's an a/c off T4 trying to get to 09L holding point, T1 traffic going for 09R, and a/c landing on 09R wanting to park at T1, against a/c landing on 09L wanting to get to T4. More crossings of 09R/27L will be needed, which will in effect take up one 'slot', so the figures for that runway might actually be less then in segregated mode, where now we wait for a natural gap (vortex) to get stuff across. When we're single runway, we're taught not to use the outer/alpha adjacent to that runway, as a/c need to vacate the runway quickly. So you can just imagine that Ground will be a nightmare.
Tigs2, check your PMs
What is being done to help you guys cope with the huge number of Human Factors issues?
I think you get my drift....
In itself, T5 shouldn't cause too many problems. In fact, many people believe it might solve a few, such as number of stands (despite the fact that as soon as T5 opens, more development work is going to begin elsewhere on the airfield that will mean an overall reduction in the number of stands for the foreseeable future). There are rumours that BA will want to move all their nightstopping a/c from T5 to their maintenance areas for the night, and back again to T5 for the morning.
The taxying problems will come when BAA want to utilise the capacity that T5 gives the airport in terms of pax, and mixed mode is introduced. I believe we're going down the road (if it's introduced) of northbounds off 27R, and southbounds off 27L etc. This will work for perhaps 20 minutes, but then I reckon the whole airfield will grind to a halt. Bear in mind that there's an a/c off T4 trying to get to 09L holding point, T1 traffic going for 09R, and a/c landing on 09R wanting to park at T1, against a/c landing on 09L wanting to get to T4. More crossings of 09R/27L will be needed, which will in effect take up one 'slot', so the figures for that runway might actually be less then in segregated mode, where now we wait for a natural gap (vortex) to get stuff across. When we're single runway, we're taught not to use the outer/alpha adjacent to that runway, as a/c need to vacate the runway quickly. So you can just imagine that Ground will be a nightmare.
Tigs2, check your PMs
Last edited by Gonzo; 10th May 2005 at 22:09.
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Would be interesting to see how charlie and delta work when the satellites open. Single taxiway, rows of L/J/JW stands back to back. It should just about work in segregated mode with uni directional (N-S) flow but in mixed mode with heavies pushing back blocking the taxiway trying to taxi to both runways and arrivals coming in from both ends...? Maybe some sort of circular one way system around C/D?
As for the existing bit, it's bad enough with the current N-S flow along the top side of alpha/bravo (push backs off T1, arrivals off 09L/27R at blocks 11 13 14, tows...) and comes mm there's also a E-W flow to/from T5. Would the taxiways cope? (And they're not catF along the top (yet) but luckily A380s can only use the 09R/27L... or is that the reason why they cant TO/land on 09L/27R?) How do Virgins' 380s get from T3 to 27R hold?
Dont even start on the crossers...
Otherwise I think the first thing BAA gotta do for mixed mode is to lay some tarmac (at the right place!!!) for stuff to get off 09R. (off the RET and right in the face of stuff on alpha off T2!)
Will the group ever cope in mm? I dont know! Just too many problems with the airfield layout inherited from the past...
As for the existing bit, it's bad enough with the current N-S flow along the top side of alpha/bravo (push backs off T1, arrivals off 09L/27R at blocks 11 13 14, tows...) and comes mm there's also a E-W flow to/from T5. Would the taxiways cope? (And they're not catF along the top (yet) but luckily A380s can only use the 09R/27L... or is that the reason why they cant TO/land on 09L/27R?) How do Virgins' 380s get from T3 to 27R hold?
Dont even start on the crossers...
Otherwise I think the first thing BAA gotta do for mixed mode is to lay some tarmac (at the right place!!!) for stuff to get off 09R. (off the RET and right in the face of stuff on alpha off T2!)
Will the group ever cope in mm? I dont know! Just too many problems with the airfield layout inherited from the past...
Last edited by littleprince; 12th May 2005 at 23:11.
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Have you seen the size of Terminal 5?? Its the same size as the current central area...... and they've been working on that for 75 years and it's still cack!!
There is a lot more to Terminal 5 than the big shiny building in the middle....... did U know it goes into the ground almost as much as it goes into the air?? Imagine how much infrastructure goes into something that size!!
Hence......a long time to build!!
There is a lot more to Terminal 5 than the big shiny building in the middle....... did U know it goes into the ground almost as much as it goes into the air?? Imagine how much infrastructure goes into something that size!!
Hence......a long time to build!!
