a question for ATCO's

[tarjet fixated]

is it normal practice to have departing aircraft squawking ident on TWR frequency just after take off for identification and then switch them to DEP?

[Lock n' Load]

Not in the UK, it isn't, or in Canada. Tower has limited use of the radar within the rules. However, I do recall that Scottish Centre got a squawk ident on first contact from aircraft departing within the Scottish TMA.
If an aircraft appears on radar within a mile of the end of the departure runway, and at the right time, it is considered identified. In the Canadian terminal environment, we use that standard for departures.

[BALIX]

Lock'n'Load

Yeah, we do have to ident traffic on first contact when departing TMA airfields. It's probably a historic thing that no one has seen fit to address. What's more, we are instructed to include the numbers in the transmission - a simple 'squark ident' will not, apparently, suffice.

However, it is highly unlikely that the tower will issue an ident instruction.

[yaffs]

unlikely ............ but not impossible

and not an historic thing - you squawk ident to validate the code and ask for a passing level to verify the charlie

yaffs

[BALIX]

Yafs

I agree about the level check on first contact. I just wonder why we can't adopt the 'departing aircraft' method of identification as described by Lock n' Load above.

[Gonzo]

BALIX...

Would not the 'departing aircraft' method only work if you were phoned by Tower and given the airborne time?

[This is a crisis]

At my place the Tower man identifies all departing aircraft by use of the primary on the ATM(within one mile from the end of the runway), thereby at the same time validating the Mode A.

If the aircraft is to be passed straight to the ACC he/she also verifies the mode C prior to transfer - if the aircraft is to be transferred to RAD then the radar controller verifes the mode C on first contact.

Only if primary radar is out of service do we instruct aircraft to IDENT when airborne (apart from the other uses of IDENT of course)

By adopting this method we have also done away with the need for the ATSA to pass airborne times to APP/RAD

This is all SRG approved and part of our standing agreements with 2 ACCs.

[BALIX]

Would not the 'departing aircraft' method only work if you were phoned by Tower and given the airborne time

We are, or to be more precise, the ATSA is given the airborne time.

To be honest, it isn't that much of an issue to me but I suspect it is an added complication to the pilot at one of the busiest times of his flight. And if we can't get rid of the ident, let us at least get rid of the need to say the numbers.

[bi-bi-jei]

Hi guys,
I'm an Italian ATCO. I'm in contact with "Tarjet fixated" on an italian forum, and he posted the question about ident few days ago.

We do use the identification method after take off by primary radar, but we ask for ident just to transfer identification to the departure sector of Milan Radar. This method of transferring identification makes the flight label interactive too, so that the radar man can coordinate with other sectors for final level, re-routing and so on simply by acting on the label.

does it sound so strange? old?

see you

[yaffs]

yep - the using the airborne time with a primary contact within a mile of the end of the runway works for identifying on primary radar - but not secondary radar - therefore the code still needs validating and verifying

yaffs

[tarjet fixated]

.......meaning?

[MrApproach]

In Oz where auto release in use TWR ensures that label is correct ie correct SSR code set, departures validates mode C, ident not required. Where no auto release TWR has to get individual release, hence next aircraft airborne should be the one for which the release was given, nil tower role in identifying aircraft. We also use within 1nm of RWY end if necessary.

[Skycon]

with system in NZ the pilot selects txpdr to active mode c on line up and fully automated system will pick up the code on the roll and cross check and automatically correlate reply, target and flight plan in system , target appears as full label on radar screen and computer activates and updates electronic plan automatically. pilot just calls Dep. on climb with altitude passing for xcheck and verification of mode c readout. If incorrect code set then will show wrong info and show an alert if another plan with same details is active and twr also check for correct correlation on departure and advises DEP if wrong , if no other plan for that squawk then just 4 figures shown.

[tarjet fixated]

So guys,
a system as the one described by BBJ could, in your opinion, be used in a more "user friendly" manner cutting additional RT's, Ident's and other distractions without compromising "radar safety"?