Mil ATC Careers
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mil ATC Careers
Whilst coal-face controlling will always remain an exciting and enjoyable challenge, does anyone in Mil ATC feel they are getting the support they deserve from the Ivory Tower that was once HQ MATO? ATC HQ is now relegated to a small element of 3Gp HQ and is under-staffed. Whilst other specialisations seem capable of defending their ground and moving with the times, why are ATC stuck in the 'cold-war' work from your ATC Tower MOB mentality?
Guest
Posts: n/a
You say that our ATC band at HQ3 Gp is understaffed? Maybe, but having just read the lastest issue of "Contact" magazine (soft, strong and thoroughly absorbent) I notice that, despite our ever-diminishing number of airfields and ATC units, our Branch/Trade still has 4 Gp Capts, over 40 Wg Cdrs and 119 Sqn Ldrs. Isn't that enough to look after our interests? How soon before they outnumber the JOs and SNCOs?
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Sunny Uk
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
KPax and ATCLFC some emotive replies but not to the exam question. Why is ATC stuck in the Cold War MOB mentality? I would argue 2 issues. Firstly by virtue of being resident on the MOBs it is very difficult to break that culture. Secondly, however, when you consider the out of area commitments recently supported by Mil ATC, Basra Afghanistan Kosovo to name but 3, I would suggest that Mil ATC is in a transitional period. Its upper echelons may be cold war warriors but bear in mind they are fully in tune with the deployable ATC module. More importantly those controllers & assts who have experienced ops and are now coming through the ranks will, I believe, change that perception.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree that experience at the junior level is improving rapidly. It is those very people who are left exposed by the senior ranks without operational experience! The danger is, by the time any of the new generation are senior enough to make an impact, it will be too late for the branch. Why haven't we already been sold off? Because it's too expensive to go civvy, that's all.
Why haven't we already been sold off? Because it's too expensive to go civvy, that's all.
There are certainly no shortage of people to consult if you have a question. The answer may not be quite so easily obtained. We seem to work in a society that is almost frightened of making a decision. It may be a poor example but look at the RPAR fiasco, different units different rules. Are we not supposed to be working to a standard, ie JSP552. In a perfect world you would ring one of the many staff officers and get an answer.
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Sunny Uk
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WBS - good point and well presented. We may be wandering off thread here but the deployable ATC element is the future of the Mil ATC branch. While some may believe that the Branch will be sold off I don't see this as a viable option overall - while some airfields could have locally employed controllers with little impact to the front line there is always going to be a requirement for the Britmil ATCer. Why? Because they are one of the best practioners and respected by our own forces and coalition partners for the professional and competent service they provide. The face of UK Mil ATC may be changing but as WBS said the level of knowledge and experience does exist at the higher ranks - not at all levels I would concede but enough to matter. May I suggest that the biggest threat to UK Mil ATC is the infighting??
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Lincoln
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Future of Mil ATC
Chatting to a few mates in the bar recently, it appears that a delegation of RAF ATC and RAF FC reps went to Canada to see how they operate a merged ATC/FC
Branch.
Maybe this is the way that we will end up going??
GB
Branch.
Maybe this is the way that we will end up going??
GB
Maybe this is the way that we will end up going??
removes tongue from cheek and takes cover
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: North of Birmingham by a lot
Posts: 139
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You guys are just cracking me up!! ........oops there goes another rib........
As an FC (in case you hadn't realised) I wouldn't have a huge problem with a combined branch. But as the two jobs are about as similar as say, pilot & nav, only the basic ATC modules could really be combined. Trust me, you don't want FCs sitting in a tower (all that sunlight would mess up our body clocks). Also, air traffickers controlling 10 v 40s could be equally scary!
However, from what you guys are saying on this thread, I suspect that our Gp staff have a better reputation than yours apparently do.
Canary Boy - Another plus side: we might turn out air traffickers who knew how to do AAR!
Regards, ADIS
As an FC (in case you hadn't realised) I wouldn't have a huge problem with a combined branch. But as the two jobs are about as similar as say, pilot & nav, only the basic ATC modules could really be combined. Trust me, you don't want FCs sitting in a tower (all that sunlight would mess up our body clocks). Also, air traffickers controlling 10 v 40s could be equally scary!
However, from what you guys are saying on this thread, I suspect that our Gp staff have a better reputation than yours apparently do.
Canary Boy - Another plus side: we might turn out air traffickers who knew how to do AAR!
Regards, ADIS
On a more serious note, I've been 'in' for a looooong time, and can recall the proposal for amalgamating FC and ATC being staffed on many occasions. I doubt that the reasons for deciding not to pursue the idea have changed sufficiently to make it any more viable now. It becomes increasingly more untenable when you consider the directions the 2 branches are taking - FCs in their growbags and ATCs in their jeans and Tshirts or on the 'front line'!
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Merging the branches
As others have already noted - the branches are effectively merged anyway under Ops Spt. IMHO there is little if any chance of further merger - where's the saving and what's the benefit? I was involved in one of the many studies and most if not all of the arguements against a completely combined branch remain as valid now as they were when this crazy idea was first raised over more than 3 decades ago when I did the JATCC.
However, the training of ATC & FC personnel is another issue and many individuals will be aware of the study currently underway and the reasons behind it. There are benefits in having a combined ATC/FC school and having everyone do some form of combined initial training. Thereafter, the chances are that individuals will be streamed ATC, or into one of the two FC routes. Time will tell whether it all happens, but the shape and size of the RAF in the future will be the determining factor and you don't need to be a Met Man to sense which way the wind is blowing.
The CATCS visit to NAVCanada was to look and their combined ATC/FC branch and how the training is conducted. However, it wasn't just a CATCS visit, two very well known characters from the SFC also went along to provide some 'tone' and balance!
However, the training of ATC & FC personnel is another issue and many individuals will be aware of the study currently underway and the reasons behind it. There are benefits in having a combined ATC/FC school and having everyone do some form of combined initial training. Thereafter, the chances are that individuals will be streamed ATC, or into one of the two FC routes. Time will tell whether it all happens, but the shape and size of the RAF in the future will be the determining factor and you don't need to be a Met Man to sense which way the wind is blowing.
The CATCS visit to NAVCanada was to look and their combined ATC/FC branch and how the training is conducted. However, it wasn't just a CATCS visit, two very well known characters from the SFC also went along to provide some 'tone' and balance!
Last edited by Matoman; 20th Feb 2005 at 18:20.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Spanish Riviera
Posts: 637
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sounds like the biennial CATCS awayday.
I agree with MATOMAN, we've been there before and will be there again. The only difference now is that both FC and ATC are having to justify the existence of some rather small specialisations.
I agree with MATOMAN, we've been there before and will be there again. The only difference now is that both FC and ATC are having to justify the existence of some rather small specialisations.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Whipping Boys SATCO is clearly a deep thinker who is able to stand back and look at the big picture! An essential skill if one is to progress to the dizzy heights to be strived for in Ops Spt (ATC). Better get in there quickly though whilst you can still recognise the branch for what it is!
ADIS5000,
Don't make me laugh.....10V40,!!!!! you wouldn't exactly be giving A control would you? so don't make it out to be more difficult than it is.. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to give Bullseye.
.
Am I bothered, does my face look bothered, ask me if I'm bothered
Don't make me laugh.....10V40,!!!!! you wouldn't exactly be giving A control would you? so don't make it out to be more difficult than it is.. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to give Bullseye.
.
Am I bothered, does my face look bothered, ask me if I'm bothered
ADIS5000
I don't think so me old mucker.....come on then...lets see the extent of your knowledge/experience in this field.
And while we are at it you try dealing with 20 speaking units on LARS in the Vale of York on a Wednesday Afternoon or pushing tin over London.
Love and kisses
Am I bothered?
I don't think so me old mucker.....come on then...lets see the extent of your knowledge/experience in this field.
And while we are at it you try dealing with 20 speaking units on LARS in the Vale of York on a Wednesday Afternoon or pushing tin over London.
Love and kisses
Am I bothered?